A Political Thread pt. 2

[Gavin]

I was listening to an interview with a voter today from Hartlepool who claimed to have voted Conservative. They claimed that the Labour MP didn't value the NHS and was actually trying to remove facilities from the town. The voter claimed to have found out this information on Facebook.

As the presenter of the show pointed out (LBC James O'Brien), the Labour MP is a Doctor in the town who had already written about the reasons why facilities were moving from Hartlepool was because of Conservative cuts to NHS funding and he was pushing for them to be brought back to the town.

It's like when people claim there's been mass EU immigration (even though they just hate brown people) and they can't control it because of EU rules, yet a quick glance at clauses on the Freedom of Movement within the EU clearly states that you can be removed from a country after 3 months if you become a burden on the state (there is also rules in place prior to moving too).

The Conservative's have really got the messaging right in terms of short slogans. Minimal effort. From my understanding a result of big Dom Cummings.

People can access anything they want instantly, so they have no time to read through actual reports. They want click-bait.


Take this for example. One person could think "brilliant leaving the EU was great. Rule Britannia", whereas really you should think "well of course it's gonna grow at the fastest as we've all been locked down for the past year"

 

[ncurd]

within the EU clearly states that you can be removed from a country after 3 months if you become a burden on the state (there is also rules in place prior to moving too).

James O'Brien once had a guy on his show who's actual job was to find these people and "remove" them in the UK. He said it was extremely disheartening having conversations with family members who basically claimed his job "didn't exist".

 

[ncurd]

Johnson turns up in Hartlepool repeats lies including the very bizarre super league one.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-57016689?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=609566b670ea3b02f012485e%26Boris%20Johnson%E2%80%99s%20Brexit%20claims%20fact-checked%262021-05-07T16%3A42%3A06.833Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:c35df457-afc3-4bcc-a24b-b073a8450ae4&pinned_post_asset_id=609566b670ea3b02f012485e&pinned_post_type=share

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

It's the thing I find most baffling about the working class Tories "Labour don't represent me, I feel I'm represented by an Etonion Oxbridge boy brought up in wealth who has been fired twice for lying and has barely held a real job in his life" or the nonsense about how they call Starmer one of the privileged elite (despite being brought up on a council estate) and calling Mogg or Johnson "on of the people". There are many reasons to vote 1 way or the other but I keep hearing stuff like this which is just such contradictory bullshit.

It's like when we had the Brexit referendum and they were interviewing someone in Wales who was complaining the EU just takes money and funds nothing in the UK. The reporter said they did, interviewee said they didn't and demanded an example and the reporter just pointed at a huge community centre and sports complex they were standing in front of that successive Westminster governments had refused to fund and the EU did. Telling lots of lies is how you win due to Brandolinis law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini's_law

In essence it takes far more time and effort to dispel a lie than to tell it so if you fire out enough, some will stick because nobody will have enough time to properly argue against all of them. This is the Tory and Republican tactic and it works even more in the age of social media where bullshit is in abundance and fact checking is now viewed with more scepticism than known serial liars are.

 

[Gavin]

Johnson turns up in Hartlepool repeats lies including the very bizarre super league one.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-57016689?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=609566b670ea3b02f012485e%26Boris%20Johnson%E2%80%99s%20Brexit%20claims%20fact-checked%262021-05-07T16%3A42%3A06.833Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:c35df457-afc3-4bcc-a24b-b073a8450ae4&pinned_post_asset_id=609566b670ea3b02f012485e&pinned_post_type=share

Just saw that on the BBC. Interview with an old man who seemed happy he was there and commented 'he said he's going to buy us all fish and chips'

Would that be the Norwegian cod which Britain can't fish?

 

[ncurd]

Just saw that on the BBC. Interview with an old man who seemed happy he was there and commented 'he said he's going to buy us all fish and chips'

Would that be the Norwegian cod which Britain can't fish?

You actually think Johnson will buy them?

 

[Gavin]

You actually think Johnson will buy them?

Was more I found funny that this old man was loving Johnson because he'd buy them all fish and chips, yet the issues within the fishing industry post Brexit.

Turkey's voting for Christmas came to mind.

 

[Reiser99]

Can we just accept that Britain is and always has been a right wing country. Possibly at the start labour were more progressive and genuinely looking to help working class people. In my experience both parties are lead by the wealthy upper-class and a two sides of the same coin. The only real difference has been for years Labour targeted working class voters as a way to power, Tories targeted the middle and upper classes. Blair made big in roads into the middle class to get power, but often the reality is that the political system is stacked in the Tories favour. Further, in this age of mis-information, politics has become a popularity contest and most people vote for the party that validates their world view, regardless of if it is correct. Tories have benefited from this massively with Brexit and channelling 20+ years of the working class being lied to by the likes of the daily mail.

We're a greedy, egotistical nation, who has only ever cared about ourselves in the short term. We like to pretend we're forward thinking, but in reality we're a nation living in the past and still benefitting from hundreds of years of exploiting other nations and groups of people from around the world.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Can we just accept that Britain is and always has been a right wing country. Possibly at the start labour were more progressive and genuinely looking to help working class people. In my experience both parties are lead by the wealthy upper-class and a two sides of the same coin. The only real difference has been for years Labour targeted working class voters as a way to power, Tories targeted the middle and upper classes. Blair made big in roads into the middle class to get power, but often the reality is that the political system is stacked in the Tories favour. Further, in this age of mis-information, politics has become a popularity contest and most people vote for the party that validates their world view, regardless of if it is correct. Tories have benefited from this massively with Brexit and channelling 20+ years of the working class being lied to by the likes of the daily mail.

We're a greedy, egotistical nation, who has only ever cared about ourselves in the short term. We like to pretend we're forward thinking, but in reality we're a nation living in the past and still benefitting from hundreds of years of exploiting other nations and groups of people from around the world.

 

[Wasps92]

Another example would be the LD's after 2010 people say the 'party' changed, but in reality it hadn't it was even in Kennedy's time the center ground between Lab and Tory and very squeezed at that particular time. Then they went into coalition with Tories and suddenly LD voters felt betrayed because they hadn't sided with Labour. Yet the party hadn't changed much at all its policy base was still broadly the same ad they were actually enacting a good proportion of manifesto they were elected on. People deserted them in their droves for understandable reasons they thought the party was decidedly anti-Tory as they were, that didn't actually make it true.

Honestly someone showed me a stat the other day only 5% of people read print media, 40% get it from online. I do think the social media bubble of confirmation bias is far more of issue. This person has said a thing I want to agree with so they must be correct.

That's 2017 GE and 2016 referendum, you said your Dad switched in 2015...so that doesn't add up. "It became more London Centric", how? "It said they were racist", when?
Here's a better question why did the working class vote leave? I'm not from up North, I'm not working class (some of my grandparents were) but I'm also not London based (I'm from the Westcountry) and pretty much dislike city life. However I do think one thing is true Brexit wasn't about racism (although to pretend there wasn't a sizable racist vote would be equally stupid) you look at it and it was we want change vote or stick to the man vote.

I leave you with the words of Khalid Mahmood who was up until recently, the Shadow Defence Minister:

More criticism of the Labour party has come in from one of its own MPs - and he doesn't hold back.

Khalid Mahmood - who was until a few weeks ago a shadow defence minister - says: "A London-based bourgeoisie, with the support of brigades of woke social media warriors, has effectively captured the party.

"They mean well, of course, but their politics – obsessed with identity, division and even tech utopianism – have more in common with those of Californian high society than the kind of people who voted in Hartlepool yesterday.

"The loudest voices in the Labour movement over the past year in particular have focused more on pulling down Churchill's statue than they have on helping people pull themselves up in the world.

"A bit of superficial flag-waving – reinforced by urgent memos from party HQ – isn't going to fix that.

"We fix that by supporting jobs in these so-called left behind areas – with changes to public procurement, for example, that bring jobs back to the UK and support manufacturing jobs, including those in high tech, advanced manufacturing."

 

[TRF_Olyy]

What a load of ********

 

[ncurd]

"We fix that by supporting jobs in these so-called left behind areas – with changes to public procurement, for example, that bring jobs back to the UK and support manufacturing jobs, including those in high tech, advanced manufacturing."

Most of what he said is the same nonsense you've been spouting no actual evidence. But we live in age where if you say a thing it must be true.

This last part however is worth discussing. However the harsh reality is manufacturing industry got ****** by Thatcher and it isnt coming back. Well unless those worker want to go to South East Asian wages. The government can subsidise it a little but you only have to look at the great white whale of HS2 to see how badly major infrastructure jobs are going in this country.

I was having a think about this earlier and maybe Blair wasn't so bad about his 50% go the university policy. Realising formthe future the UK needed a highly educated population. About 15 years ago many companies tried outsourcing my work (software engineering) to places like India. Most of the jobs came back because they didn't have expertise or knowhow and because it was done cheap it was done badly. Now the work rarely gets outsourced.

Britain equally has many high tech manufacturing businesses. But the days of places like British Leyland are long gone.

No amount of leaving the EU is going to fix that as well we've already seen manufacturing jobs leave.

That isn't going to help 50 year old Jim from Hartlepool just like telling fishermen leaving the EU wouldn't fix their problems. And whilst Labour doesn't have answers (because no one does) they run to the man selling snake oil.

 

[Wasps92]

Most of what he said is the same nonsense you've been spouting no actual evidence. But we live in age where if you say a thing it must be true.

This last part however is worth discussing. However the harsh reality is manufacturing industry got ****** by Thatcher and it isnt coming back. Well unless those worker want to go to South East Asian wages. The government can subsidise it a little but you only have to look at the great white whale of HS2 to see how badly major infrastructure jobs are going in this country.

I was having a think about this earlier and maybe Blair wasn't so bad about his 50% go the university policy. Realising formthe future the UK needed a highly educated population. About 15 years ago many companies tried outsourcing my work (software engineering) to places like India. Most of the jobs came back because they didn't have expertise or knowhow and because it was done cheap it was done badly. Now the work rarely gets outsourced.

Britain equally has many high tech manufacturing businesses. But the days of places like British Leyland are long gone.

No amount of leaving the EU is going to fix that as well we've already seen manufacturing jobs leave.

That isn't going to help 50 year old Jim from Hartlepool just like telling fishermen leaving the EU wouldn't fix their problems. And whilst Labour doesn't have answers (because no one does) they run to the man selling snake oil.

Okay mate, the Labour MP is wrong, you're right.

 

[ncurd]

Okay mate, the Labour MP is wrong, you're right.

One Labour MP looking for 5 mins of fame.

I'm going with the other now you an uneducated dolt. I've tried to engage with you all day in good faith and you haven't bothered at all. You wonder why people don't listen to you but then don't actually want to have a conversation. You just want to be told your right and all your problems can be solved with a wave of magic wand. Really what's the ******* point enjoy being shafted by the Tories because sometime I don't why I bother caring about the little guy cause they ain't shafting me.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Okay mate, the Labour MP is wrong, you're right.

The fact you can look at Keir Starmer, someone who'd be a tory if he liked the colour blue, and see some woke sjw marxist just shows how far your head is buried in the sand (/buried in the murdoch press machine)

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Ironic the person brought in by Corbyn resigns from the front bench under Starmer and says it's for the loud woke left.

 

[ncurd]

The fact you can look at Keir Starmer, someone who'd be a tory if he liked the colour blue, and see some woke sjw marxist just shows how far your head is buried in the sand (/buried in the murdoch press machine)

He wouldn't, I know you don't like the guy but he's pretty left wing compared to any Tory leader we've seen. He might be coloured Gold but definitely the if you squint the Red&Blue SDP variety.

In reality he's probably a little left of Blair.

As for SJW he was an actual human rights lawyer, I mead the guys probably got legitimate credit in the bank unlike most SJW's for actually doing something.

But yeah its still a wild take on the man, his legal career is genuinely impressive (when you ignore the lies and half truths), they don't just hand out QC's for turning up.

I understand why Corbyn supporters don't like him and hes made his fair share of blunders so far although he's winning on not alienating an entire ethnic/relgious group. But they kinda need to accept how massively Corbyn was rejected.

Starmer could be our Biden, we just need someone to step up and be AOC/Bernie and work with him rather than trying to murder him. #starmerout has trended on twitter every so often since he was elected. Its not helpful at all.

Ironic the person brought in by Corbyn resigns from the front bench under Starmer and says it's for the loud woke left.

I did not know that, well then its clearly a cheap shot at Starmer from bloody left wing faction. God I hate Labour for this not the crap thats made up but this legitimate nonsense.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Here's a question would both the us and UK elections have gotten the same results if they swapped dates (so UK during lockdown and USA with the vaccines starting to roll out).

 

[TRF_Olyy]

we just need someone to step up and be AOC/Bernie and work with him

Do we really have anyone like that in UK politics atm? (Genuine question, not a hypothetical)

I follow Zarah Sultana on twitter and I like her a lot, she's very progressive - though she has some controversies in her past that she'd be torn to shreds in the press for if she gained any real momentum in the party (got in trouble for pro-Palestine/anti-Israel tweets, and also saying she'd be happy with G.W.Bush and Blair kick the bucket)

Here's a question would both the us and UK elections have gotten the same results if they swapped dates (so UK during lockdown and USA with the vaccines starting to roll out).

Don't think it'd make a difference with ours, but I think Trump definitely would've won

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

I'll come in on the UK stuff when Scotland and London are properly done but yeah, I reckon if the US election is a month earlier or even two weeks later then Trump wins it