A Political Thread pt. 2

[McTallshort]

What do you think happened between ww1 and the great depression?

Ok where was this great economic boom in the 20s? Certainly not Europe. Britain faced mass unemployment, the Jarrow marches, huge public spending cuts and political upheaval, Germany was suffering inflation of 3 figures and was so economically trashed that the little party a chap called Hitler ran was starting to become a favourable option for many, France was changing governments on a daily basis and Russia....well they were starting one of their many disastrous 5 year plans. Africa and Asia were mostly still under colonial rule, America was flooded with migration due to the horrendous economic situation everywhere else and although some parts of American society were starting to benefit from capitalism for the vast majority of Americans life was just has crap as it had been since the civil war. You had a mass refugee crisis from the dust bowl, probation which allowed organised crime to become so powerful it would take 60 years to break, mass strikes with strike breakers oh and Spanish flu, polio and small pox.

Yeah the 20s were a great time to be alive.

Look I don't disagree things are looking a bit crap now and I do worry for my kids one of whom left school this year but to play this generational self-pity card is a bit daft. I left school in 91 which was during a rather long and painful recession, got an apprenticeship at a metal work factory and was made redundant before the job even started due to all the heavy industry in the UK shutting down and moving elsewhere. With unemployment at 3 million the only stable employment was the forces so I joined the Army. Yes University was "free" but only about 25% of kids got to go. Violent crime was a normal daily part of life with football hooligans being a regular fixture ever weekend. Life felt a lot tougher back then, anti social behaviour was off the charts, drug dealers ran whole towns particularly in regional towns like Nottingham, Basildon, Bristol and Glasgow. Yes house prices were lower but your choice of houses was so bad the first house I ever brought was in such a rough area I used to part my very stealable ford escort at a mates house half a mile away. My options for employment when leaving the army in 99/20 were so poor the best job I could get was £138 per week maintenance bod in a warehouse.

Every generation faces hardships of some sort. I have quite high hopes for your generation, you come across a lot more sensible and compassionate than us Gen xers did but you need to lose the self pity.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

With unemployment at 3 million - predicted to go into the double digits percentage wise by next year.

I don't quite get the Free Uni was ok because it was only 25%, back when I was at uni about 46% went to university and largely because that government encouraged more Uni's to be built and made. It's a double edge sword that's been created by governments.

I think people would currently take affordable housing even if it was crap, best people can find is £500 a month for a **** house in a **** town, or in london it's basically a bed and bathroom in someone's home.
£150 a month doesn't even get you a parking spot in london.

Yes we certainly have lower crime rates etc, but same time Insurance prices are through the roof. Per of fuel is over £1 a litre more, price of everything is significantly more and reality is in the next year the crime rates will go up.

Also hard to talk about self pity when all we have heard mainly from previous generations is how hard they had it and everything is easy and gets given to us for the past 20 years. (Not saying from you but in general it's been the party line for some time)

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Honestly, whilst a good soundbite, this is a big part of what is wrong with politics atm.

Surely we should encourage our politicians to learn and evolve, as well as change their mind and policy - we shouldn't want any politician who hasn't changed their mind (or won't admit to it) since they were 15 - that's just not intellectually healthy or politically healthy.

 

[Gavin]

Increased reports in the media about 'Warm Banks' being created for this winter where people who can't afford to heat their own homes can go and stay warm.

It's absolutely mental that this is happening in the UK. Food bank usage has gone through the roof and now this.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think people would currently take affordable housing even if it was crap, best people can find is £500 a month for a **** house in a **** town, or in london it's basically a bed and bathroom in someone's home.
£150 a month doesn't even get you a parking spot in london.

Yeah rent is going loopy atm,

When I first started working Birmingham I was looking at some flats here but decided to commute in instead,
Was looking around again because commuting costs are becoming a right pain in the arse and the same flats that were £650-750 last summer are now £850-895, and I've noticed a number have gone from coming with a designated parking spot to parking available for an extra £50-75 per month,
It's mad

The two bed I used to rent in lichfield for £700 now has single beds in the same building for £800

 

[Reiser99]

Honestly, whilst a good soundbite, this is a big part of what is wrong with politics atm.

Surely we should encourage our politicians to learn and evolve, as well as change their mind and policy - we shouldn't want any politician who hasn't changed their mind (or won't admit to it) since they were 15 - that's just not intellectually healthy or politically healthy.

True, though the current leadership election feels like both candidates are throwing **** at the wall and seeing what sticks. I'm fine for people changing their mind (though it's slightly hypocritical when people say we can't change our minds about other issues), but I'd like to see it because it's genuinely best for the country, not because they want to win a vote. This is the bigger issue, that our politicians are more worried about staying in power than doing what's best for the country and that people in the U.K actually seem to want politicians who will lie and mislead them just to win an election. Politics in the U.K hasn't been politically or intellectually healthy for a while now, especially under this current government.

 

[ncurd]

Honestly, whilst a good soundbite, this is a big part of what is wrong with politics atm.

Surely we should encourage our politicians to learn and evolve, as well as change their mind and policy - we shouldn't want any politician who hasn't changed their mind (or won't admit to it) since they were 15 - that's just not intellectually healthy or politically healthy.

Massive differnce between someone who evolves, I think we can accept Truss was a LD who turned Tory. The fact she has a history of radically changing her position on a multitude of issues is worrying.

 

[Which Tyler]

Massive differnce between someone who evolves, I think we can accept Truss was a LD who turned Tory. The fact she has a history of radically changing her position on a multitude of issues is worrying.

And, or course, the fact that her position can change so radically over the course of 24 hours

 

[ncurd]

Yeah rent is going loopy atm,

When I first started working Birmingham I was looking at some flats here but decided to commute in instead,
Was looking around again because commuting costs are becoming a right pain in the arse and the same flats that were £650-750 last summer are now £850-895, and I've noticed a number have gone from coming with a designated parking spot to parking available for an extra £50-75 per month,
It's mad

The two bed I used to rent in lichfield for £700 now has single beds in the same building for £800

This is from a friend a few days ago about prices in Bristol

And, or course, the fact that her position can change so radically over the course of 24 hours

Yup even the LD to Tory thing is hard stomach at 19 she was pro-abolition of the monarchy, pro legalistaion of cannabis and against the 1994 Crinimal Justic Bill was described by people who knew her as quite left wing even for the LD's. Just two years later she was a pro-Europe Tory and just 6 years she was still an ardent Remainer now she's the post child for the ERG the most extreme wing of the Conservatives.

Like people evolve but from a SDP LD to an ERG Conservative is one hell a journey. Even strong Remainer to strong Brexiteer in 6 requires a lot of heavy lifting.

 

[ncurd]

I know he's not going to win but holy ****

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

ardent Remainer

By all accounts from people actually involved in the campaign, this just isn't true - it was up in the air until quite late who she would back apparently

 

[Reiser99]

By all accounts from people actually involved in the campaign, this just isn't true - it was up in the air until quite late who she would back apparently

So again someone who can't make up their mind.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

My parents generation IMO will go down as the most selfish one for some time.
The kind of generation that didn't need a degree for most non specialised work and now most jobs require one. (But won't let you forget how they never went to Uni)

On the degree front blame Tony Blair.

There are some professions that absolutely require degrees and years of study. Huge investment that should give rise to top rewards over time. Those opportunities should be available to all with the talent and ambition.

But the vast majority of general jobs don't require degree level of intellect / education to carry them out. If degrees are required it's because they've been devalued as University has become the default setting, not because they mark out the holder as exceptional.

This is down to Blair setting arbitrary University targets. Net result for too many: debts, inflated expectations and no real step up on the job ladder. Time for many would have been better spent in vocational training, apprenticeships or starting a career earlier at a lower level. In many industries, more relevant, professional qualifications can be obtained without having been to Uni. Not to decry the personal development that Uni can bring BTW.

I had the chance to go to Uni, but at the time I didn't want to. My choice. Sometimes I wonder whether I made the right decision, but on balance I'm comfortable - I called it as I saw it and didn't just blindly step onto the unthinking conveyor belt because that was the done thing (which it was for most people from my school). Maybe I might have had better early career opportunities but a degree can only help open doors - once you're through them it's entirely down to you. FWIW I don't think any of my colleagues or more recently made friends have a clue whether I went to Uni or not.

 

[ncurd]

On the degree front blame Tony Blair.

I've snipped most, I think Blair had good intentions with the wrong solutions. It was essentially about genuine levelling up making sure those from certain backgrounds were actually afforded the opportunity for further education. Rather than being one of the few like my father from underprivileged backgrounds who saw the opportunity of University (or Polytechnic which he went to) and a degree. It became a path that one could aim towards.

The problem as you mentioned the renaming of Polytechnics and other vocational routes made them get left behind in terms of aspiration. I've lost track of the amount of renaming of NVQ's I'm looking at this table and it makes the head hurt.

National Vocational Qualification - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So an employers goes, I want the equivalent of an undergraduate degree they only look at people with Bachelor's and have no clue what else constitutes RQF/FHEQ level 6 is. Nobody does without looking up.
Giving some a BSc (SW) would make far more sense.

I do think vocational learning is back on the rise many graduates I know of now are or were degree apprentices. Which is great I think the blend of formal and vocational training is best for highly specialised skilled roles.



More worryingly though is he trend of requiring 'useful' degree leading to University's dropping of arts courses. Rather than employers looking for people with analytical aptitude (which is what a degree shows in non-specialised complex roles) they want someone from STEM for no good reason.

I think the floodgates have opened on this and there is no turning back we wanted a highly-skilled educated labour force and got one. The jobs for them just didn't exist (this isn't entirely true go do a Software/Electronics Engineering degree there are **** tons of jobs) this has lead to the vicious cycle of needing a degree even for jobs that don't require showing that aptitude thus pushing down those who chose not to go and a lack of genuine opportunity for those without specialised skills.

 

[McTallshort]

With unemployment at 3 million - predicted to go into the double digits percentage wise by next year.

I don't quite get the Free Uni was ok because it was only 25%, back when I was at uni about 46% went to university and largely because that government encouraged more Uni's to be built and made. It's a double edge sword that's been created by governments.

I think people would currently take affordable housing even if it was crap, best people can find is £500 a month for a **** house in a **** town, or in london it's basically a bed and bathroom in someone's home.
£150 a month doesn't even get you a parking spot in london.

Yes we certainly have lower crime rates etc, but same time Insurance prices are through the roof. Per of fuel is over £1 a litre more, price of everything is significantly more and reality is in the next year the crime rates will go up.

Also hard to talk about self pity when all we have heard mainly from previous generations is how hard they had it and everything is easy and gets given to us for the past 20 years. (Not saying from you but in general it's been the party line for some time)

With unemployment at 3 million - predicted to go into the double digits percentage wise by next year.

I don't quite get the Free Uni was ok because it was only 25%, back when I was at uni about 46% went to university and largely because that government encouraged more Uni's to be built and made. It's a double edge sword that's been created by governments.

I think people would currently take affordable housing even if it was crap, best people can find is £500 a month for a **** house in a **** town, or in london it's basically a bed and bathroom in someone's home.
£150 a month doesn't even get you a parking spot in london.

Yes we certainly have lower crime rates etc, but same time Insurance prices are through the roof. Per of fuel is over £1 a litre more, price of everything is significantly more and reality is in the next year the crime rates will go up.

Also hard to talk about self pity when all we have heard mainly from previous generations is how hard they had it and everything is easy and gets given to us for the past 20 years. (Not saying from you but in general it's been the party line for some time)

I'm not saying uni was ok. But the line often is well your generation had it for free which is true but it was a lot more difficult to get a place, many kids at university now would not have even had that option 30 years ago. Today you just need to get your grades and as long as you don't mind the loan you can go.

You can still buy property in bad areas and London was always madness with regards house prices, think the really big difference is rent is much more expensive because so many people invested in property back in the 00s. Now the tenents rent is a bit more than the landlords mortgage so saving for a deposit is harder.

Yeah I get the bit about generations moaning but I don't often hear that from gen xers like myself who actually look back at their teens and twenties with mischievous smile.

 

[Yulia]

Is there a free higher education somewhere in the UK now? And what should you do to get a free place at university (pass exams etc) ?
(Asking just out of curiosity, I have a master's degree and don't plan to study in the UK )

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Is there a free higher education somewhere in the UK now? And what should you do to get a free place at university (pass exams etc) ?
(Asking just out of curiosity, I have a master's degree and don't plan to study in the UK )

Believe it's free in Scotland if you're a Scottish resident, the rest of the UK have to pay

Entry requirements the same the nation-wide, I think - school/college grades most important, many places also have an interview and some will also have their own exams to enter

 

[Yulia]

the rest of the UK have to pay

So, you have to ask your parents to pay for your education or take a special loan for it, right? Weird system, to be honest. Are there some grants for a higher education (for those who can't pay but want to study)?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

So, you have to ask your parents to pay for your education or take a special loan for it, right? Weird system, to be honest. Are there some grants for a higher education (for those who can't pay but want to study)?

Again: Not sure if they're the same now, but when I went to university anyone could apply for a student loan and it behave(s/d) differently to a normal loan - money went straight to the University to cover fees, and then it gets taken directly from your paycheque once you're earning a certain amount
A lot of people refer to it as a graduate tax rather than a loan as you never physically pay it back, just at a certain pay level you get a few quid taken out of your cheque before it hits your bank account, it also gets written off after a certain point (30yrs post graduation, maybe?)

There are also grants and bursaries for people based on different circumstances (many you are entitled to as part of the application process to get a student loan as they're based on household income, some are more specific like the NHS student nurse bursary, where they contribute to fees and students get some money, and at my university there were bursaries for people taking courses in the Welsh language amongst a bunch of different scholarship/bursary options)

 

[ncurd]

Yeah I get the bit about generations moaning but I don't often hear that from gen xers like myself who actually look back at their teens and twenties with mischievous smile.

Gen X tend to be a pretty mature level-headed bunch (as with all generations these are sweeping generalisations), gone through and obtained LGB rights even with the Spector of Section 28 along with elder Millennials and witnessed the internet revolution as young adults as opposed to teenagers. Its a different perspective but the differences don't seam to be that much compared Boomers which I feel is more of a dividing line Gen Xers.

It might also just be I have way more in common with being an elder Millenial, Gen X as I've interacted with them more, they've been my immediate peers in the workplace, most of my friends are Gen X (my wife pointed out now my best man turned 40 I'm literally the only one in my close friends who is below that age and some are in their early 50's). My parents were also young Boomers being born in 60 and 61 so closer to that X mentality. Its also where you can really see generational differences with the same spectrum her parents are 44/47 so on that silent/boomer gap and the idea culturally either of our sets of parents had anything in common is laughable.