[2025 Six Nations] England vs Scotland - 22/02/25

[Ragey Erasmus]

It takes quite an incredible coach to be so bad that they not only employ the wrong tactics, then pick the wrong players for those wrong tactics but to seemingly muck stuff up so much that seasoned professionals can't even execute the most basic skills they would have been practicing from day 1 any more.

Borthwick has successfully got the entire team playing worse than they do at club level. I cannot think of a single player who is actually stepping up and doing better for England. That's unacceptable.

I remember articles a while ago about English players complaining at the media saying they were boring etc etc. There was a big thing about them changing the brand of rugby. They haven't, they've become one of the most uninspiring and feeble England teams in my lifetime.

 

[Zed]

England's win was opportunistic and sometimes that's all that matters. Improvement will follow.

Will it follow? SB has seemingly settled on a turgid style of rugby that is going to grind out some victories. But this was against a team ranked 7th in the world, they played at home and lost the try count 1-3. Imagine if they played the ABs or SA away, it would be a slaughter. You can't kick away possession to a team like South Africa. They're not going to boot it into touch giving England a lineout. They're not going to drop the ball giving England a scrum. They're going to attack with some of the best attacking players in world rugby. There's something missing with SB, he doesn't quite get it. I think England have the potential, with the players they have, to b a top 3 side. But they need a different coach, one that is adaptive.

 

[Flankers' paradise]

Squidge rugby once described Wigglesworth as "a packet of ready salted crisps that was taught how to box kick" which I think perfectly describes our attack under him. Suspect the crisps might win the duel though...

 

[dgc47]

Dare I ask with all the criticism about England's win......how bad must Scotland be?

 

[General Melchett]

Dare I ask with all the criticism about England's win......how bad must Scotland be?

I think this is where you separate the result from the performance. Yes a loss hurts but it's a lot easier to process knowing that you had a go and tried to utilise your attacking talent which provides us fans with some entertainment. I've enjoyed watching the Scottish tries a few times since Saturday despite the result not going our way. I think most Scots fans are philosophical enough to know that on another day Russell has a better conversion rate from the tee and we don't leave as many points on the field as we did. We just weren't clinical enough on the day and we have to own that. England did what they needed to do to get the win and so fair play.

It looks like SB has prioritised results via turgid rugby over performance/entertainment which is his prerogative as it's his job on the line. He'll only get away with that as long as he's able to grind out wins. He's going to have a big problem when those W's turn into L's because it's not as if England don't have the attacking talent at their disposal. Fans pay good money and want to be entertained and see their players excel. I think many England fans know that they got away with one on Saturday and recognise that there are fundamental problems within the coaching set up.

 

[spartan32]

Dare I ask with all the criticism about England's win......how bad must Scotland be?

Scotland aren't bad at all my friend, and that's the point. They deserved to win. They played expansive rugby, always looked dangerous with ball in hand and had England on the ropes pretty much the entire match. They looked well drilled and moved with purpose. Were it not for Russell have a really bad day at the office, they would have soundly beaten England. I think I speak for many England fans when I say that this win left me feeling really deflated. It represented yet another step back in englands performance, and the problem can only be Borthwick, because the players on the field can certainly play a hell of a lot better than that.

Will Greenwood summed it up really well after the game. Many of the England players look unrecognisable from their prem performances. Playing completely counter to their style, locked into a pre planned tactical approach which clearly wasn't working, but unable or unwilling to shift gear no doubt fearing falling from favour an ending up on the ever growing England scrap heap.

Things need to change and they need to change fast. Itoje is a big presence in England and has been given the captaincy. Now he needs to show some real leadership and have a word with his coach to save his team. I can't believe any of them are happy with the situation. They are being made to look like fools. Time
For SB to wise up, or ship out.

 

[retired9]

O'Driscol said as much during the weekend roundup after the Rome game yesterday: He watches all these talented English players at their clubs and they are several steps above what they produce for England's national team. That has to land at the head coach ultimately, tbh I just don't see how SB can be an inspirational figure in the changing room at this level - unless he has a complete personality change for the media.

The General sums it up well, Scotland know that we lost that game though our own doing, yes England were better 2H but that doesn't account for the amount of penalties conceded and inaccuracy.

Russel didn't have a good day from the tee, but otherwise was pretty decent IMO. As someone rightly pointed out elsewhere, he is the only 10 with Lions experience with a look in for the tour, and has enough pedigree to warrant a place.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

O'Driscol said as much during the weekend roundup after the Rome game yesterday: He watches all these talented English players at their clubs and they are several steps above what they produce for England's national team. That has to land at the head coach ultimately, tbh I just don't see how SB can be an inspirational figure in the changing room at this level - unless he has a complete personality change for the media.

Partly. But I think a lot of that is down to several clubs playing in a way that isn't really transferable to the international game. The international game is also a lot more intense and less forgiving.

Beforehand I said it was a must win. We won. But that only holds any water if it's going to be a launching pad for better things.

A lot of flak about the way we played. Understandable, it felt like a throw back to 23, but we've mostly been trying to do a bit more than that. Wasn't this a bit of an outlier? And if that was really the plan from outset then the selection was barmy.

Leadership remains an issue. The game plan mostly wasn't working. What were the 'leaders' Itoje, Genge etc doing about it?? Where were the adjustments on the hoof? Where was the quiet word to Mitchell / F Smith suggesting a change of tack? If they just passively went along with the preordained plan then they are just as culpable as the coaching staff.

We take the win and move on. But have to be a lot more convincing in the remaining 2 games.

 

[Geordie]

O'Driscol said as much during the weekend roundup after the Rome game yesterday: He watches all these talented English players at their clubs and they are several steps above what they produce for England's national team. That has to land at the head coach ultimately, tbh I just don't see how SB can be an inspirational figure in the changing room at this level - unless he has a complete personality change for the media.

The General sums it up well, Scotland know that we lost that game though our own doing, yes England were better 2H but that doesn't account for the amount of penalties conceded and inaccuracy.

Russel didn't have a good day from the tee, but otherwise was pretty decent IMO. As someone rightly pointed out elsewhere, he is the only 10 with Lions experience with a look in for the tour, and has enough pedigree to warrant a place.

Yeah...Lee Blakcett did an interview after the A game and it was refreshing...he spoke of trying to attack even in this conditions, and that they would work out on the pitch if they had to adapt their game etc.

I appreciate A level to top level 6 nations is a whole different ball game but, still thought, SB is like a damp squib.

 

[spartan32]

So Ive now watched highlights from the U20s and England A, and both those teams look like they could beat the current England side. They certainly played a brand of rugby that we all want to see. Now I know that at proper big boys level things are different, but they ain't that different. Maybe we should get the coaching staff from those squads and swap them with SBs lot. Wouldn't that be an interesting experiment? I do wonder whether JVP has earned a call up after his performance, but then again I'm not sure it'll make a difference if SB is simply going to squash any talent out of the lad. Anyway I've run out of road with all this now. England need to perform better. End of. If we have any chance of taking this tournament home we need to BP both the final games and more than that, score a lot of tries, because even if Ireland lose to France and fail to get a BP, they will smash Italy to death on the final weekend and so it's going to come down to PD. So that's a good goal for England I think. Both Wales and Italy have improved through the tournament and it would be unfair on them both to suggest that England will score agains them at will. We will need a solid game plan and some silky skills (like the French). So enough of this box kicking BS, we need tries, and lots of em. So it's time to through caution to the wind, play heads up rugger, run it from the 22, snipe round the edges and go for the big win. Do that, and maybe fans will start to come back on board. Don't, and I think we will all start searching our family trees for our new National teams.

 

[Saintjay]

Partly. But I think a lot of that is down to several clubs playing in a way that isn't really transferable to the international game. The international game is also a lot more intense and less forgiving.

Beforehand I said it was a must win. We won. But that only holds any water if it's going to be a launching pad for better things.

A lot of flak about the way we played. Understandable, it felt like a throw back to 23, but we've mostly been trying to do a bit more than that. Wasn't this a bit of an outlier? And if that was really the plan from outset then the selection was barmy.

Leadership remains an issue. The game plan mostly wasn't working. What were the 'leaders' Itoje, Genge etc doing about it?? Where were the adjustments on the hoof? Where was the quiet word to Mitchell / F Smith suggesting a change of tack? If they just passively went along with the preordained plan then they are just as culpable as the coaching staff.

We take the win and move on. But have to be a lot more convincing in the remaining 2 games.

Leadership not coping with what's going on during the game has been an issue for years. Hartley and Haskell vs Italy the shining example.

England did adapt at half time and I think it was more individual errors. Randall botched kick, Daly out on the full that invited pressure late on.

England's attack for me is still the issue. No excuse for kicking away with a four on two. That's got to be a coaching tactic. Vesty with Saints has the team actively looking for one vs one's and overlaps. Instead we kicked 64% of possession away or one kick per 2.3 passes according to the BBC.

Wales had more in attack after three coaching sessions than Borthwick has achieved in years.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Both Wales and Italy have improved through the tournament

Not entirely sure that's true.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I do wonder whether JVP has earned a call up after his performance, but then again I'm not sure it'll make a difference if SB is simply going to squash any talent out of the lad.

Was thinking that watching the game yesterday - looks good enough to go straight back into the 23, but then I'm not sure I'd actually want that for him on a personal level cause he'd be forced to play like a donkey and then he'd get trashed for it again!

 

[mikebrownsauce1512]

Sorry to the Scottish posters. That really should have been an away win. England second best in everything but the scoreboard.

Scoreboard is all that matters in the end though, well done England

 

[Zed]

Leadership remains an issue. The game plan mostly wasn't working. What were the 'leaders' Itoje, Genge etc doing about it?? Where were the adjustments on the hoof? Where was the quiet word to Mitchell / F Smith suggesting a change of tack? If they just passively went along with the preordained plan then they are just as culpable as the coaching staff.

Well I think this seems to be a general issue with teams the higher up you go, they are over-coached and lose their ability to adapt, think for themselves and are just robots following a super-structured game plan that's been drilled into them for months. In this zone we box kick, in this zone we kick long, in this zone we keep it tight. What if the half-back looks up, sees the blind side winger out of position, does he run it instinctively or box kick like he's been told to? With England its the latter. They're not playing what's in front of them.

It was no more evident than in a game vs Ireland (2 years ago?). England box kicked in their 22, caught cleanly by Ireland who threw the ball wide and scored. 10 minutes later, England do the same thing and Ireland almost scored again. Even some sh!tty pub team would know not to do that. Why would you kick the ball to a team that is ranked no 1 in the world, giving them clean ball just outside your 22?? This is an elite team, coached by elite coaches who are being paid a fortune, yet they seem to missing something.

I wonder if England has too many resources, too much money, too many coaches that players are overwhelmed. Their instincts tell them to do one thing, but their over-coached brains tell them to do something different. Why would they look to change the game plan? That would be going against SB's game plan. Coach knows best...

 

[Zed]

England's attack for me is still the issue. No excuse for kicking away with a four on two. That's got to be a coaching tactic. Vesty with Saints has the team actively looking for one vs one's and overlaps. Instead we kicked 64% of possession away or one kick per 2.3 passes according to the BBC.

For sure a coaching tactic. Quite sad really. You wouldn't get away with it in school rugby, butchering overlaps, yet you have some of the best players in the world not doing rugby basics, drawing and passing, utilising an overlap. You'd think they'd all be sitting their with their heads in their hands watching the post-game video analysis..

I think England will beat both Italy and Wales, but I think at least one of those games will be very poor, possibly both and SB will be out even if England finish 2nd.