[2023 Six Nations] England Squad

[Saintjay]

Reported Dan Kelly out of six nations.

Out for possible 10 weeks.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Dombrant needs a chance to bed in to international rugby and the same can be said for quite a few of the lads. We don't want to be dropping b curry or OHC yet.

Everyone needs to calm down, let's pick the same 15 but sort the bench out and remove the EJ dead wood, although it also removes our experience.

 

[Crash Hamster]

I believe that Dombrandt will come good so would stick with him a little longer. Controversial perhaps, but I can't say the same for Smith. I just don't see him making the step up to the level that's needed. How many caps has he now? I look back to when Farrell and Ford had their first few caps and you could just tell straight away that they were test players. Same with Cipriani, in fact. Am I alone?

Marcus "highest points scorer in the 2022 Six Nations" Smith? Marcus "man of the match in both England's wins" Smith? Marcus "scored more points for England in those 5 games than Cipriani did in his whole England career" Smith?

I'm inclined to think he deserves his international spot; there's really not much more of a 'step up to international class' which he needs to make IMHO.

 

[Jimbo]

Marcus "highest points scorer in the 2022 Six Nations" Smith? Marcus "man of the match in both England's wins" Smith? Marcus "scored more points for England in those 5 games than Cipriani did in his whole England career" Smith?

I'm inclined to think he deserves his international spot; there's really not much more of a 'step up to international class' which he needs to make IMHO.

Agreed when you consider a good chunk of his caps have been handicapped by Faz at 12 and Youngs at 9, where as Dombrant really doesn't have the same excuses his inability to catch the ball vs Scotland proved pretty crucial it was a one off bad game, although as previously said I can't remember seeing him for England looking really good not to say let's just drop him but he does need to get his act together or at some point be dropped far sooner than Smith as things stand, both have had very average games only one very good!

 

[BPM]

I really rate Dombrant but at some point it has to be called a failed experiment (unless he can start to bring his club form), I could be moss remember it wasn't a good game for him but I am can't remember a game In an England shirt I thought wow he was great, I'd love to see both Willis bros paired run themselves in the ground then let Curry come on for one of them with Earl at 6, I'm not saying this would defiantly work but hell what we've had hasn't worked I want to see players excel as they get legitimate challenges for the short not get comfortable and under perform which is a common theme. I appreciate hands are tied to a large extent so much of this may not be possible.

Dombrandt has 10 caps and I think 3 starts. 9 of those came under Eddie where he was either being asked to be a heavy carrier (which isn't his strength) or weirdly brought on to pack down as a flanker late in games. That's your failed experiment …

He didn't have a great game on Saturday, but it's genuinely the first time I've seen him asked to play a similar role to what we see at Quins. I'd like to see him given at least a few more games as a starter.

Even if it isn't a roaring success, it'll help to evolve a game plan than will also suit Mercer when he's available. Plus, I'd wager it'll be better than what Billy would have been bringing.

 

[mike1]

Agreed when you consider a good chunk of his caps have been handicapped by Faz at 12 and Youngs at 9, where as Dombrant really doesn't have the same excuses his inability to catch the ball vs Scotland proved pretty crucial it was a one off bad game, although as previously said I can't remember seeing him for England looking really good not to say let's just drop him but he does need to get his act together or at some point be dropped far sooner than Smith as things stand, both have had very average games only one very good!

Marcus "highest points scorer in the 2022 Six Nations" Smith? Marcus "man of the match in both England's wins" Smith? Marcus "scored more points for England in those 5 games than Cipriani did in his whole England career" Smith?

I'm inclined to think he deserves his international spot; there's really not much more of a 'step up to international class' which he needs to make IMHO.

That's one way to describe it. Another is that he was the 10 and playmaker in one of England's worst ever six nations campaigns. He wasn't handicapped by Farrell then either. Maybe I'm being harsh, but when I watch him for England, he often looks uncomfortable and doesn't run the show like he does for his club. Against New Zealand in the autumn, he was absolutely class in the final quarter, though he hasn't done it consistently enough, at least for me.

 

[Saintjay]

I just don't know about Dombrandt. My ideal 8 is a big lump that carriers well in traffic. Probably a little old fashioned. Bodies hanging off him to make space outside or on the shoulder. If you don't have a big lump it the means you have to play big lumps or in England's case a lock on the flank. Nice lines, quick hands and feet are lovely but surely an 8's main job is to smash the ball up and anyone in the way. However I do accept most of England's current 8's don't have that so we'll have to play to what skills they do have.

 

[Jimbo]

That's one way to describe it. Another is that he was the 10 and playmaker in one of England's worst ever six nations campaigns. He wasn't handicapped by Farrell then either. Maybe I'm being harsh, but when I watch him for England, he often looks uncomfortable and doesn't run the show like he does for his club. Against New Zealand in the autumn, he was absolutely class in the final quarter, though he hasn't done it consistently enough, at least for me.

It's one of the most pressured positions and ideally you want to be bringing a young FH into an established mid field which he wasn't, he is also playing behind a pack which at times has been fairly poor, the fact that even you have seen glimpses of brilliance (be it not as consistently as we would like) shows there is potential its hardly like we have a big queue of quality proven FHs in the waiting, FTR I don't have any objections to Smith and Farrell sharing the shirt at different points in the game and what's required and against different opposition, I do however have an objection to a Smith Faz combo it's proven not to work, GF Faz combo has worked to some extent in the past due to their familiarity playing together over the years but even then for chunks of that the pack was performing well, Watson and May were on fire which probably makes it more difficult to determine actual strengths.

Dombrandt has 10 caps and I think 3 starts. 9 of those came under Eddie where he was either being asked to be a heavy carrier (which isn't his strength) or weirdly brought on to pack down as a flanker late in games. That's your failed experiment …

He didn't have a great game on Saturday, but it's genuinely the first time I've seen him asked to play a similar role to what we see at Quins. I'd like to see him given at least a few more games as a starter.

Even if it isn't a roaring success, it'll help to evolve a game plan than will also suit Mercer when he's available. Plus, I'd wager it'll be better than what Billy would have been bringing.

I agree and was perhaps being a little hasty I just want to see him transfer some club form, I did caveat it with (unless he can bring his club form), I guess this is a situation where there isn't exactly an English 8 head and shoulders above others who you'd favour over him either currently.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Not one for the WC but I still think Mercer is exactly the sort of 8 England need. Literally everything we want from our 8's he does. He's a better carrier now than Vunipola, is probably only behind Simmonds for speed, has been a lineout jumper, has that little added aggression and also that never say die attitude. It was him who chased down Smith running half the length of the pitch to stop him scoring a try.

Dombrandt, like Simmonds is not really performing well at 8 but then I'd argue the 8 they replaced had been performing even worse. Maybe the issue is we are **** poor at utilising our 8's well and haven't moved away from the idea of having Billy Prime playing there?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Maybe the issue is we are **** poor at utilising our 8's well and haven't moved away from the idea of having Billy Prime playing there?

Borthwick's ideal club level 8 was Wiese who is a wrecking ball as well

 

[Crash Hamster]

That's one way to describe it. Another is that he was the 10 and playmaker in one of England's worst ever six nations campaigns. He wasn't handicapped by Farrell then either. Maybe I'm being harsh, but when I watch him for England, he often looks uncomfortable and doesn't run the show like he does for his club. Against New Zealand in the autumn, he was absolutely class in the final quarter, though he hasn't done it consistently enough, at least for me.

First game v Scotland:
Had Youngs at 9 and England were leading when he was replaced by George Ford. He'd also scored all England's points

Second game v Italy:
Had Randall at 9 for first 55 minutes and played the whole game in a 33-0 away win. Won MoM.

Third game v Wales:
Had Randall at 9 for first 62 minutes and kicked Wales to death. Played whole game. Won MoM.

Fourth game v Ireland:
Randall for the first 53 minutes. Ewels got sent off after 2 minutes, which didnt help. Scored all England's points in a tonking. Played whole game.

Fifth game v. France:
Youngs at 9 for first 64 minutes. Played whole game. Didn't miss a kick. Lost away to the GS winners.

Over twice as many points scored as Johnny Sexton.

I think, before the 2022 6N started, most realistic England supporters would have expected to lose to Ireland and France. As I say, we were beating Scotland when Smith went off. He's not quite 24 yet, which will make him 28 at the 2027 World Cup. Assuming no major injuries, he'll be a real asset and we have a reasonable chance of winning.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I just don't know about Dombrandt. My ideal 8 is a big lump that carriers well in traffic. Probably a little old fashioned. Bodies hanging off him to make space outside or on the shoulder. If you don't have a big lump it the means you have to play big lumps or in England's case a lock on the flank. Nice lines, quick hands and feet are lovely but surely an 8's main job is to smash the ball up and anyone in the way. However I do accept most of England's current 8's don't have that so we'll have to play to what skills they do have.

If he's getting the team going forward I don't really mind whether he's running through brick walls or into space, although it's always harder to defend against intelligence.

Mainly from watching Quins, in contact he seems to get man handled a bit too easily at times for a biggish unit. He dropped a fair bit of weight and while that will have helped his work rate, maybe there was a bit of a trade off on impact.

Maybe just perception, and possibly unfair, but his body language reminds me of Launchbury - often giving the impression of being gassed (maybe he is) rather than right up for getting straight back in the opposition faces. That matters to an extent.

His poor moments the other day were highlighted but there were some good ones too. Worth persevering with but not yet feeling like a long term solution.

 

[mike1]

First game v Scotland:
Had Youngs at 9 and England were leading when he was replaced by George Ford. He'd also scored all England's points

Second game v Italy:
Had Randall at 9 for first 55 minutes and played the whole game in a 33-0 away win. Won MoM.

Third game v Wales:
Had Randall at 9 for first 62 minutes and kicked Wales to death. Played whole game. Won MoM.

Fourth game v Ireland:
Randall for the first 53 minutes. Ewels got sent off after 2 minutes, which didnt help. Scored all England's points in a tonking. Played whole game.

Fifth game v. France:
Youngs at 9 for first 64 minutes. Played whole game. Didn't miss a kick. Lost away to the GS winners.

Over twice as many points scored as Johnny Sexton.

I think, before the 2022 6N started, most realistic England supporters would have expected to lose to Ireland and France. As I say, we were beating Scotland when Smith went off. He's not quite 24 yet, which will make him 28 at the 2027 World Cup. Assuming no major injuries, he'll be a real asset and we have a reasonable chance of winning.

It's one of the most pressured positions and ideally you want to be bringing a young FH into an established mid field which he wasn't, he is also playing behind a pack which at times has been fairly poor, the fact that even you have seen glimpses of brilliance (be it not as consistently as we would like) shows there is potential its hardly like we have a big queue of quality proven FHs in the waiting, FTR I don't have any objections to Smith and Farrell sharing the shirt at different points in the game and what's required and against different opposition, I do however have an objection to a Smith Faz combo it's proven not to work, GF Faz combo has worked to some extent in the past due to their familiarity playing together over the years but even then for chunks of that the pack was performing well, Watson and May were on fire which probably makes it more difficult to determine actual strengths.


I agree and was perhaps being a little hasty I just want to see him transfer some club form, I did caveat it with (unless he can bring his club form), I guess this is a situation where there isn't exactly an English 8 head and shoulders above others who you'd favour over him either currently.

You both make solid points, and for what it's worth, I hope Smith does comes good in an England shirt. Like I said, I thought my opinion might be controversial, but wanted to gauge the forum's thinking on the matter nevertheless.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Borthwick's ideal club level 8 was Wiese who is a wrecking ball as well

Yep you look at who played 8 for tigers under him
Wiese
Liebenberg
Martin
Chessum
Jansen

He doesn't go for athletic.

 

[Scotty]

If he's getting the team going forward I don't really mind whether he's running through brick walls or into space, although it's always harder to defend against intelligence.

Mainly from watching Quins, in contact he seems to get man handled a bit too easily at times for a biggish unit. He dropped a fair bit of weight and while that will have helped is work rate, maybe there was a bit of a trade off on impact.

Maybe just perception, and possibly unfair, but his body language reminds me of Launchbury - often giving the impression of being gassed (maybe he is) rather than right up for getting straight back in the opposition faces. That matters to an extent.

His poor moments the other day were highlighted but there were some good ones too. Worth persevering with but not yet feeling like a long term solution.

With Dombrandt, given he isnt the the run through brick walls hard man and gets rag dolled to easy for a big man, maybe you have to pay the 'Simmonds tax' for Dombrant to be effective and you need say THill Willis Dombrandt. Some hard carriers to allow him to roam and run hard smar lines, i think that back row is incredably balanced. Hill and Willis are good carriers and with Chessum and Genge too your not short of good carriers.

Not sure who else we have who fits that carrying hard carrying 6 role.

but you cant pick dombrandt then explect him to be a hard man. Weve had Billy Billy or Billy for so long we just expect out 8 to be a blunt object.

Future options at 6 id say is Pearson and CCS but no point going into them now.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Reported Dan Kelly out of six nations.

Out for possible 10 weeks.

4 more games of Farrell it is, then!

We've got to start Tuilagi vs Italy to see what he looks like in the England backline

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Pearson yes, CCS not for a while.
Certainly think CCS is one for the future as a 8. Especially since we don't have many great 8 prospects imo.

Mercer will be the main one of interest come RWC. Similar style to dombrandt but imo Merced's skill set is so much higher than Dombrandt.

So Brandt is extremely good but he just doesn't strike me too much as a player who can fit in different game plans.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

4 more games of Farrell it is, then!

We've got to start Tuilagi vs Italy to see what he looks like in the England backline

I want to see
12. Lawrence
13. Slade

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I know people don't want to discard Ben curry yet, but imo Ludlum was Tom's deputy. He's excellent for saints as a 7 and added real impact off the bench in Aus.

People complain about having a lock hybrid at 6 but is having two 7's that much better?

 

[BPM]

SB said he was picking on form

I rest my case

Specifically re. Youngs?