[2022 Six Nations] England vs Wales (26/02/22)

[ncurd]

Slade like about people in the squad (especially the backs) tend to do with issues with those playing inside him rather than his actual capability.

If Youngs (who'll be starting because getting record breaking cap off the bench will somehow be more vomit educing) has his once a year good game we might see at least everything but the wing actually fire against Wales.

 

[LIONSxv]

Really interesting article in the telegraph by Charlie Morgan, pointing out that in the last 3 years v Wales in 6N, England have had a total of 4,5 & 6 lineouts, with only 3 of the 104 kicks appearing as deliberate attempts to put the ball into touch. Then went on to show how England use the lineout as a really effective platform to attack, with Mauls, dummy mauls, variations in numbers, and also as a platform to launch Tuilagi in midfield, and how taking that away from England enhances ball in play time, puts more emphasis on fitness and creativity to break a side down over multiple phases, something England have struggled to do, as well as counter attack with a whole lot of dynamism.
To put this in perspective, Wales have had 45 lineouts off of 94 England kicks, almost 50% going to touch

Makes you wonder if the inclusion of 4 lineout jumpers in the pack (incl Curry here ofc) or maybe even 5 if Dombrandt is at 8, will be as important as the ability to recognise and manipulate the defense in open play, and just how useful Marcus Smith may be this weekend with the way he sees the game

I don't think that a specic Welsh tactic Vs England. It seems to be a Welsh tactic. It's borne out of the ideology that the Welsh are fitter than everyone else, so keeping the ball in play suits their supposed fitness advantage. It was borne in gats/Edwards era, Mcbryde confirmed it again, where he believed the Welsh lads train harder than the Irish.
For me I'd have to some very compelling GPS analysis to suggest the Welsh are that much fitter than any of Home Nations and even France now.

 

[Jakedood]

I don't think that a specic Welsh tactic Vs England. It seems to be a Welsh tactic. It's borne out of the ideology that the Welsh are fitter than everyone else, so keeping the ball in play suits their supposed fitness advantage. It was borne in gats/Edwards era, Mcbryde confirmed it again, where he believed the Welsh lads train harder than the Irish.
For me I'd have to some very compelling GPS analysis to suggest the Welsh are that much fitter than any of Home Nations and even France now.

I would agree, however in years previous to this the kicks to touch were fairly standard vs wales as vs anyone else, its only in 19,20,21 that the kicks to touch get remarkably lower, so 2/3 years are post Gatland

 

[MikeTheNative]

I'm sure I've read somewhere that teams tend to score a big proportion of their tries off 1st/2nd phase line out ball. (England especially) So Wales have decided to only kick the ball out when absolutely necessary

 

[Jakedood]

I'm sure I've read somewhere that teams tend to score a big proportion of their tries off 1st/2nd phase line out ball. (England especially) So Wales have decided to only kick the ball out when absolutely necessary

The article references the 2020 Six nations game, where England had 3 lineouts in the first half leading to 17 points as a prime example

 

[ncurd]

I'm sure I've read somewhere that teams tend to score a big proportion of their tries off 1st/2nd phase line out ball. (England especially) So Wales have decided to only kick the ball out when absolutely necessary

Bit hard to score beyond the first phase if you kick it everytime...

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Really interesting article in the telegraph by Charlie Morgan, pointing out that in the last 3 years v Wales in 6N, England have had a total of 4,5 & 6 lineouts, with only 3 of the 104 kicks appearing as deliberate attempts to put the ball into touch. Then went on to show how England use the lineout as a really effective platform to attack, with Mauls, dummy mauls, variations in numbers, and also as a platform to launch Tuilagi in midfield, and how taking that away from England enhances ball in play time, puts more emphasis on fitness and creativity to break a side down over multiple phases, something England have struggled to do, as well as counter attack with a whole lot of dynamism.
To put this in perspective, Wales have had 45 lineouts off of 94 England kicks, almost 50% going to touch

Makes you wonder if the inclusion of 4 lineout jumpers in the pack (incl Curry here ofc) or maybe even 5 if Dombrandt is at 8, will be as important as the ability to recognise and manipulate the defense in open play, and just how useful Marcus Smith may be this weekend with the way he sees the game

is the telegraph worth subscribing to for rugby stuff?

 

[Jakedood]

is the telegraph worth subscribing to for rugby stuff?

Mostly for Charlie morgan, but tbh I'm probably gonna cancel after 6N as its gotten a lot more expensive. But around international games he does some really good articles

 

[BPM]

Really interesting article in the telegraph by Charlie Morgan, pointing out that in the last 3 years v Wales in 6N, England have had a total of 4,5 & 6 lineouts, with only 3 of the 104 kicks appearing as deliberate attempts to put the ball into touch. Then went on to show how England use the lineout as a really effective platform to attack, with Mauls, dummy mauls, variations in numbers, and also as a platform to launch Tuilagi in midfield, and how taking that away from England enhances ball in play time, puts more emphasis on fitness and creativity to break a side down over multiple phases, something England have struggled to do, as well as counter attack with a whole lot of dynamism.
To put this in perspective, Wales have had 45 lineouts off of 94 England kicks, almost 50% going to touch

Makes you wonder if the inclusion of 4 lineout jumpers in the pack (incl Curry here ofc) or maybe even 5 if Dombrandt is at 8, will be as important as the ability to recognise and manipulate the defense in open play, and just how useful Marcus Smith may be this weekend with the way he sees the game

This is exactly what I was thinking. If there is a high 'ball in play' time, I'd hope Smith can come to the fore a bit more. He's not quite been the same as we see with Quins yet, but I think he's getting there.

 

[Scotty]

Cuthbert is a rock in defence, please have him as last man as often as possible

We have Daly they have Cuthbert...

 

[Which Tyler]

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I'm not gonna pretend that Slade is world class or anything but I do think he's played comfortable his best rugby alongside Tuilagi. Any creative midfielder is going to do much better alongside a centre who draws defenders and buys them lots of time than if they're alongside the likes of Farrell, Daly or Marchant who can't do what Tuilagi does.

 

[Wasps92]

It's hard to take anyone from a colonialist country's view on this seriously. The privilege in this post reeks.

Plastic Welsh, Irish, Jamaican, Pakistani etc... who visit regularly, know their culture, don't consider themselves English and were only born there in most cases as a direct result of, at best, poor leadership from Westminster in their home country? (At worst government backed terrorist organisations threatening death etc...)

Just to flip it, why should England benefit from these people who only stay out of comfortability and emigration not being easily accessible? And they do benefit on a far grander scale than international rugby.

I hate the term plastic [nationality], Immigrant people the world over have endured too much **** to be ridiculed for or denied their familial nationality.

Now of course there has to be rules and I think the grandparent rule is about right, beyond that there'll still be cases of people who identify more with their country of heritage but it, rightly, becomes less and less as integration progresses and racism/xenophobia fades.

Interesting that you say England is a colonialist country but Wales isn't.

 

[Which Tyler]

Any rugby player is going to do much better alongside a centre who draws defenders and buys them lots of time than if they're alongside the likes of Farrell, Daly or Marchant who can't do what Tuilagi does.

FTFY

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Would love to see what Smith can do with Tuilagi as an option too (or even what Ford can do). Both can delay the pass until the last minute and force defences to keep an eye on Tuilagi longer than someone like Farrell would, who often passed way behind the line and telegraphed it beforehand. Just add some quick service from the 9 so the defence can't properly set and Tuilagi to not suffer a catastrophic hip injury when he sneezes and we're good to go.

 

[Scotty]

I'm not gonna pretend that Slade is world class or anything but I do think he's played comfortable his best rugby alongside Tuilagi. Any creative midfielder is going to do much better alongside a centre who draws defenders and buys them lots of time than if they're alongside the likes of Farrell, Daly or Marchant who can't do what Tuilagi does.

To me Slade is not a player that breaks a game on his own. Manu can smash through defences or hold players like no one else which gives Slade time, if the 12 isnt holding defenders then there's more pressure on your 13 who forces a pass or tucks it but when he has time he can look 'world class' drawing players and offloading bringing the wingers into play. Slow ball and he can look average.

Smith can be under immense pressure and still get it away accurately or step and run so to me thats the difference between someone who is world class(he isnt yet but has all the signs of being) and Slade who isnt but has the talent to look it of provided with the right conditions.

Steward and Dombrandt running smart lines while Manu is holding defenders and slade and Smith have time to pick their options COULD be class....

Please start Randall, that running threat could actually enhance it not to me mention the faster delivery and hold youngs back as an experienced head to calm it down if Randall isnt performing. Its is a risk though

 

[curtbob7]

Yeah, really bizarre, 15 cap international, who's proven to have international quality (even though he's off form) gets picked ahead of someone who's not even first choice at his club

He hasn't proved any international quality IMO. 15 caps in, someone else deserves a chance.

Heyes off the bench would be better than Stuart.

Hard for Heyes to start for Tigers when he has Dan Cole ahead of him who, let's face it, if he was a couple years younger would still be getting caps for England.

 

[spartan32]

Unfortunately I can see Wales getting fired up for this whilst England don't seem to get fired up for any games now. If we sleep walk into this like we did against Scotland and don't take our chances then it could be another embarrassment. Even though we had the ball and territory for huge chunks of the game against Scotland, it didn't feel like we were able to do anything with it, whilst on the flip side it felt like our defence too easily just switches off. A pet hate of mine. You'd think with career professionals they would be told never switch off, especially when the opposition have just got a penalty/free kick/set piece and yet they consistently do it and keep getting caught out.

Both teams look very poor but I think Wales will have more fight and motivation than England.

Firstly how did we "sleep walk" into the Scotland game? The team were as prepped as a bunch of newbies could be for the red hot cauldron of Murryfield filled with Scots screaming for blood and settled Scottish tea in their stride.
I agree that it felt as though we didn't have enough variety and potency in attack, and certainly didn't turn possession into points, but again I would put that down to inexperience and a side that had never really played together trying to figure it out. Throw in the fact that last scrum was almost certainly a penalty, the game could easily had been a draw, and if Marcus's cross kick had been a little more on the mark, a victory. In the end small margins, and with Russell on fine form, at home, and with experience over Smith, England were always going to be up against it.

In terms of Wales on Saturday they look poor. They often struggle at Twickenham, and England have had a little time to settle. Throw Lawes and Manu back into the mix, our own home crowd baying for Welsh blood, and Jack the pirate looking to rampage around and make a point, there is every reason to feel optimistic. I only hope Randall gets to start.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

.

To me Slade is not a player that breaks a game on his own. Manu can smash through defences or hold players like no one else which gives Slade time

To be fair very few players can break a game by themselves, and nor should we put much weight on that either. It's far more important to have the right system and shape in place and if some of those players happen to have those moments of magic then great.

If you can give Slade front foot ball and half a second of space he can be lethal and he and Manu would seem to complement each other well. But looking at what he's done so far, he's usually had to cope with at least 2 of a non dominant pack, a ponderous 9 and an average centre partner. Not to mention kicking based game plans. Slade's made plenty of errors for sure, but realistically what 13's really going to shine in those conditions??

As for Manu, clearly he walks into the team on merit when fit. But realistically how often has he strung together a series of match influencing performances at international level in relatively recent years? Will what worked in 2012 really cut it now? Come to that how often has he even been available? At his best what he brings is brilliant, but to pin hopes on him or build a team around him is, unfortunately, delusional.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Firstly how did we "sleep walk" into the Scotland game? The team were as prepped as a bunch of newbies could be for the red hot cauldron of Murryfield filled with Scots screaming for blood and settled Scottish tea in their stride.
I agree that it felt as though we didn't have enough variety and potency in attack, and certainly didn't turn possession into points, but again I would put that down to inexperience and a side that had never really played together trying to figure it out. Throw in the fact that last scrum was almost certainly a penalty, the game could easily had been a draw, and if Marcus's cross kick had been a little more on the mark, a victory. In the end small margins, and with Russell on fine form, at home, and with experience over Smith, England were always going to be up against it.

In terms of Wales on Saturday they look poor. They often struggle at Twickenham, and England have had a little time to settle. Throw Lawes and Manu back into the mix, our own home crowd baying for Welsh blood, and Jack the pirate looking to rampage around and make a point, there is every reason to feel optimistic. I only hope Randall gets to start.

Bearing in mind many of our "experienced" players we are bringing back were humiliated last year in the 6N and looked poor before that too. England did look like they were sleep walking the Scotland game. Lots of ball but not knowing what to do with it and then when the Scots got the ball, we kept getting caught out as if the players were not paying attention.