[2021 Six Nations] England Squad

[Ragey Erasmus]

 

[higgik]

A loose head that couldn't scrum, a lock who doesn't know the rules (maybe two of them), an 8 that can't break the line, a 9 that can't pass, a 10 that has no composure, a 12 who can't step, run or pass off both hands, a 15 who can't catch or tackle.

That sums up what Jones chose to select.

Think sums it up perfectly.
Especially the 10 with no composure, said this for a long time. Ford is world class when everything fits nicely and a complete novice when he had to think. The same applies to Farrell, so the 2 combined make it awful.
As SCW says TCUP is more important at this level than anything else.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

We need to reset England team - Jones

England coach Eddie Jones says he needs "to reset the team" after their Six Nations ***le defence ended in defeat by Ireland and a fifth-place finish.

www.bbc.co.uk

"We're going through a transition period in the team," he said. "This is almost a natural time for that to happen with two years before the World Cup."

Growing seriously tired with his bullshit. Of all the teams in the 6N we are in the least transition.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The only players to be in a position to be in transition are Eddie's Undroppables

 

[Wendigo7]

We aren't in transition though.

Lawrence, Malins, Hill, arguably Earl are the new ones off the top of my head. Maybe Stuart?

Mark Wilson is STILL the preferred option after underhill at 6. In his current form, he brings literally nothing though... yet we're persistenting with an average over the hill 32/33 yr old player over youngsters who we could develop. It's all bluff and fluster.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

In defence of Wilson he was fantastic pre-RWC-injury and was in good form for falcons pre-6N

I can admit that this Six Nations he's been....there?
Like he's made his tackles etc. but he's not been standout to say the least
With the type of player he is (industrious workhorse) 2019 was probably his peak, and he was unlucky to have it hampered by injury, but I can understand why he was there this 6N - equally I can understand if he's not there in the summer

 

[Reiser99]

Thought about doing some in depth analysis but **** it, Jones gonna be Jones and we all know what the problems are.

I posted a Lions squad so assuming those players go (LCD, George, Itoje, T. Curry, Watson, May, Slade, Sinckler), here would be my current squad for the summer I'd like to see (I'm ignoring minor injuries). Basing numbers on 2017 summer tour to argentina, though not identical.

Props: Obano, Stuart, Williams, Genge (Then I dunno, props are my weak point, 2 young props with potential)
Hooker: Singleton, Dunn, Thacker
Locks: Launchbury, Ewels, Hill, (Not sure on 4th. Lawes is a possibility, but I don't think he'll be there in 2023. It then becomes who might be, though they will probably be 5th choice. Sod it Isiekwe)
Back Row: Underhill, Dombrandt, Simmonds, Earl, Wilson, Ludlum, B. Curry, Barbeary (if he's not going to be played at hooker anytime soon.)
SH: Robson, Randall, Spencer
FH: Ford, Simmonds, Smith
Centres: Redpath (Oh wait, ****), Marchant, Lawrence, Odogwu (if this is his future position), L. James, O'Conor (He's being playing well for Bristol)
Wing: McConnochie, Thorley, Nowell, Hassell-Colins
FB: Malins, Steward

Think I've got an extra backrow in there. For me these are players who could come good by 2023 and deserve a shot with some experienced players who I think will also be there in 2023. Centre still looks worrying.

 

[Crash Hamster]

If you want a Dupont aged 24, you have to take a van Poortvliet aged 19.

How good would England centres look with JvP and Marcus Smith at 9 and 10?

 

[Reiser99]

If you want a Dupont aged 24, you have to take a van Poortvliet aged 19.

How good would England centres look with JvP and Marcus Smith at 9 and 10?

JvP is definitely one for the future and wouldn't be opposed to him as an apprentice (if it actually means anything, hard to tell tbh). However 2023 is too soon for him.

 

[Jashay]

In terms of looking at newer players, we actually saw quite a lot of change! Sure, it was mostly injury-forced, but if you say a newer player is one with 10 or fewer caps then we saw 2 props (Obano and Stuart), 2 locks (Hill and Martin), 2 flankers (Willis and Earl), a scrum half (Robson), two centres (Lawrence and Marchant) and a full-back (Malins).

I could definitely see Malins, Robson, and Stuart starting in the summer. Earl probably will if we're short of Underhill and Curry. I liked the look of Lawrence, so hopefully we see more of him.

Bloody hard to guess beyond that, given that Jones always seems reluctant to pick on form, reputation, or any metrics we as outsiders can actually see.

I kind of hope we see a new captain, but I think the likely candidates (Itoje and Curry) are probably both going on the Lions tour

 

[Crash Hamster]

JvP is definitely one for the future and wouldn't be opposed to him as an apprentice (if it actually means anything, hard to tell tbh). However 2023 is too soon for him.

Yep, that's exactly the sort of thing I mean. Take him as SH, take Danny Care, leave the two of them together. Give him a little game time off the bench, maybe.

I fear that 2023 is a ship that's sailed. Dan Robson is 29, which means he'll be 31 in 2023. Ben Youngs is 31 now. No-one else has a cap yet. (that may be mild hyperbole...) The idea of 'bedding a team in' for 2 years' time is now hinging on experienced players getting back to form and/or inexperienced players becoming very good very quickly. The whole squad is lacking in experienced replacements if there's an injury or two. EJ is now at 'stick or twist' time. He's mentioned that this is a team in transition, but he's showing no signs of building any depth or experimenting in any way in the positions where we have the least cover. He can argue we need a huge ball carrier at 8 to bully the opposition, but the opposition hasn't looked like it's been particularly bullied this 6N. I'm not suggesting his plan is an awful one, but a plan which relies on one bloke to be in top form and not be injured has an obvious weakness. We seem to be going into 2023 with a lot of 30+ year olds in key positions.

As an aside, JvP would be 25 in 2027 and at the height of his powers...

 

[Reiser99]

I kind of hope we see a new captain, but I think the likely candidates (Itoje and Curry) are probably both going on the Lions tour

Potentially Launchbury.

Question about Farrell if we did go with another captain. Could Farrell's ego handle having the captaincy stripped, but still be picked and play his best without resentment?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

In terms of looking at newer players, we actually saw quite a lot of change! Sure, it was mostly injury-forced, but if you say a newer player is one with 10 or fewer caps then we saw 2 props (Obano and Stuart), 2 locks (Hill and Martin), 2 flankers (Willis and Earl), a scrum half (Robson), two centres (Lawrence and Marchant) and a full-back (Malins).

I could definitely see Malins, Robson, and Stuart starting in the summer. Earl probably will if we're short of Underhill and Curry. I liked the look of Lawrence, so hopefully we see more of him.

Bloody hard to guess beyond that, given that Jones always seems reluctant to pick on form, reputation, or any metrics we as outsiders can actually see.

I kind of hope we see a new captain, but I think the likely candidates (Itoje and Curry) are probably both going on the Lions tour

I thinks it's less of an issue that Jones doesn't blood new players, he actually does that a lot, it's that he tends to try and discard players extremely quickly and then never look at them ever again and that the new players are all in the same positions whilst other positions have had nobody look at them.

So yeah he bloods new players but it doesn't feel like it is contributing towards the development of the team.

Potentially Launchbury.

Question about Farrell if we did go with another captain. Could Farrell's ego handle having the captaincy stripped, but still be picked and play his best without resentment?

Personally I think if Farrell isn't captain then he also has a limited role in the team at all. I never bought into his hype and I feel it's been exposed more recently. Ford gets stick for needing an armchair ride but really it's Farrell who has had everything set up to benefit him wherever he has been. Ford has at least shown he can produce something from nothing, Farrell never has.

 

[Jashay]

Potentially Launchbury.

Question about Farrell if we did go with another captain. Could Farrell's ego handle having the captaincy stripped, but still be picked and play his best without resentment?

If he can't then he shouldn't be playing.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Kruis and Borthwick stocks too the moon, after this 6N's

 

[Wendigo7]

When does there become a point where we are doubling down for the sake of it? All this worry about sacking a manager, last time we had another manager was 2015 and before that 2011. We have had 2 managers in 10 years we're very risk averse and give managers plenty, plenty of time.

In my life I've watched England win the 6 nations grand slam 3 times, technically 4 but I was too young. 91, 95, 03, 16. 4 times in 30 years. Wales by comparison have had 5 grand slams in 15 years, nearly 6 in 15 years if it was last night. I believe france have won as many grand slams as us and they've been pants for 15 years.

We perform very poorly comparatively in the 6Ns and as fans try to just rationalise everything. It's all part of the plan, the WC is the answer for everything.... Well, we lost a final we should have won in 91, squeaked through with an aging team in 03, fluked 07 with dads army, folded miserably in 2015 and lost when it mattered in 2019.

When it really matters we tend to get found wanting and it's high time these answers get asked because there's no way I can tolerate as an england fan watching wales win nearly 6 grand slams in 15 years, whilst we have 3 or 4 in 30 and as fans we still double down on... it will eventually come good. IT. HASN'T. COME. GOOD.

Something needs to change.

We're nearly at the point in a couple of years where wales could go past us on Grand slams... at that point England fans will have nowhere to go and we'd need to take a very, very hard look at ourselves.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

When does there become a point where we are doubling down for the sake of it? All this worry about sacking a manager, last time we had another manager was 2015 and before that 2011. We have had 2 managers in 10 years we're very risk averse and give managers plenty, plenty of time.

In my life I've watched England win the 6 nations grand slam 3 times, technically 4 but I was too young. 91, 95, 03, 16. 4 times in 30 years. Wales by comparison have had 5 grand slams in 15 years, nearly 6 in 15 years if it was last night. I believe france have won as many grand slams as us and they've been pants for 15 years.

We perform very poorly comparatively in the 6Ns and as fans try to just rationalise everything. It's all part of the plan, the WC is the answer for everything.... Well, we lost a final we should have won in 91, squeaked through with an aging team in 03, fluked 07 with dads army, folded miserably in 2015 and lost when it mattered in 2019.

When it really matters we tend to get found wanting and it's high time these answers get asked because there's no way I can tolerate as an england fan watching wales win nearly 6 grand slams in 15 years, whilst we have 3 or 4 in 30 and as fans we still double down on... it will eventually come good. IT. HASN'T. COME. GOOD.

Something needs to change.

We're nearly at the point in a couple of years where wales could go past us on Grand slams... at that point England fans will have nowhere to go and we'd need to take a very, very hard look at ourselves.

Wait sorry are you basically arguing that England have always been **** at rugby and that we need to change coach more often to combat that?

 

[Reiser99]

Wait sorry are you basically arguing that England have always been **** at rugby and that we need to change coach more often to combat that?

No I think he's arguing that England have underperformed and that we have ignored the signs during 6Ns campaigns and only made decisions after WCs when it is too late.

 

[Wendigo7]

Wait sorry are you basically arguing that England have always been **** at rugby and that we need to change coach more often to combat that?

No, I'm saying England fans and those who run the game are far too content.

Wales with probably what? a tenth of our resources.... have achieved as much as us which whilst absolutely fantastic for them, it's awful for us. It's not just Jones I have issues with, it's the fans. Not all but a very decent contingent trust the management and will give him 4 years regardless of performance and then wonder afterwards where it all went wrong and was squandered.

I'm basically saying if we need to go all chelsea then let's do it. If we can identify the issues without having to go chelsea and maintain a very high level consistently and make good decisions consistently let's do it because clearly looking at what we are doing at the moment isn't working.

 

[Wendigo7]

No I think he's arguing that England have underperformed and that we have ignored the signs during 6Ns campaigns and only made decisions after WCs when it is too late.

This.