[2021 Six Nations] England Squad

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Yes definitely get rid of the grandparent rule. It's stupid. If those players really felt that strongly they would have done something about it. I'm struggling to think of any grandparent rule players I'd be happy with and the answer is none.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I mean, Moriarty played for England under 20s but he's pretty Welsh.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Yes definitely get rid of the grandparent rule. It's stupid. If those players really felt that strongly they would have done something about it. I'm struggling to think of any grandparent rule players I'd be happy with and the answer is none.

Fair enough. I think we've only got a few who qualify through a grandparent. Francis and Tompkins and I'm sure there's 1 or 2 I'm forgetting but hardly loads.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

To me though that's a massive problem. I don't think we should have players picking and choosing. If he really felt welsh and wanted to play for Wales he should never have put on an England shirt. He should have hated the idea of it and I lose all respect for someone that just flips like that.

No standards, even if Wales was my only chance to play international rugby I'd rather play for my midlands level 3 club thank you.

 

[Welsh Exile]

To me though that's a massive problem. I don't think we should have players picking and choosing. If he really felt welsh and wanted to play for Wales he should never have put on an England shirt. He should have hated the idea of it and I lose all respect for someone that just flips like that.

No standards, even if Wales was my only chance to play international rugby I'd rather play for my midlands level 3 club thank you.

Cool. I'm sure you appreciate that not everyone is like you, though.

What would you think is best just have you can only represent the place of your birth or something?

Get rid of residency all together?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Get rid of residency all together?

Yes, for professional players

If you moved as a kid that's fine - if you moved as a professional athlete: no residency.

 

[Reiser99]

My big issue is racing to cap young players. I think if a player plays for a country at u20s level they can't be capped by another country for at least 3 years.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Yes, for professional players

If you moved as a kid that's fine - if you moved as a professional athlete: no residency.

And I take it a kid is classed as anyone under 18. What about 17 year old athletes?

Not knocking it as such as I'm not a fan of the 3 year thing but I think 5-7 is probably about right.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

What about 17 year old athletes?

If they're professional athletes then it doesn't matter what age - there's a difference between moving countries for a job and moving countries because you're 6yrs old and your family moves.

I know that'll never happen, though - and, like you, I'd just really up the years.
I'd even go so far as make it 8years: 2 world cup cycles. Stops players missing out on a world cup and jumping ship to try and play somewhere else in the next one, but allows (as in your example) a 17yr old kid who moves from (for example) Tigers academy to Scarlets academy to then turn out for Wales in his mid-20s if he's dedicated his career (/life) to being in Wales.

My big issue is racing to cap young players. I think if a player plays for a country at u20s level they can't be capped by another country for at least 3 years.

I'd make u20s capture sides - the international game is getting younger all the time and you regularly see u20s aged players playing for the national side. They're not kids anymore at that age.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Cool. I'm sure you appreciate that not everyone is like you, though.

What would you think is best just have you can only represent the place of your birth or something?

Get rid of residency all together?

Residency at 5 years works more for me than a player playing age grade kiwi rugby and then deciding England would be an easier cap. Same with most teams but I have to ask anyone on here.

Would you be happy representing a different county if you truly felt like you weren't 'from' there?

I'd rather every player declare who they will play for at the age of 18. No changing ever.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Looks like Alex Moon was training with England earlier. There was talk of England needing a proper tighthead lock the other day; at 6'8 and 123kg I'd say he fits the bill.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Aren't they meant to be putting the residency rule back to 5 years or have I just imagined that?

It's a tough question as I don't think these things are black and white and stuff changes with regards to identity and what not but the system can obviously be abused as well so I can see where you're coming from too.

Anyway, don't want to derail the thread again.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Aren't they meant to be putting the residency rule back to 5 years or have I just imagined that?

It's a tough question as I don't think these things are black and white and stuff changes with regards to identity and what not but the system can obviously be abused as well so I can see where you're coming from too.

Anyway, don't want to derail the thread again.

It's more fun than talking about selection when Jones will pick the same out of form players and maybe tinker with an area that doesn't need it.

Whenever we talk residency we should all be made to watch Riki Fluty play for the lions. What a disgrace.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I would honestly like a tier rule.
Like if a player played for tier 1 countries age group he can't go to another for 5 years based of Grandparents, but he can go straight to a tier 2.


That being said I would also allow players to drop down to a tier 2 country if they haven't had a cap for 2 years. (But they can't go back to their previous country)

 

[BPM]

Which Welsh players are you talking about in terms of finding it embarrassing they play for Wales?

I don't find it embarrassing that they are playing for Wales. I find it embarrassing that Wales are aggressively amping up their 'exiles' program and are openly saying so.

Instead of investing in a program essentially designed to benefit from years of development work other nations have put in (mostly England in this case), why not actually invest in a better Welsh system? Welsh players should not be looking for a development holiday at places like Hartpury if they intend to play for Wales and IMO it's a very poor advert for Welsh rugby.

Re. Tompkins, I'm pretty sure I read an article where he said that he had no idea he was eligible for Wales until they contacted him. I don't blame him for accepting the call up given there had been no obvious interest from England, but let's not pretend he had ever identified with being Welsh. He clearly hadn't.

I rarely agree with Living Sacrifice, but I think I'd feel very conflicted about representing another country I have no genuine connection to, even if I did qualify through a grandparent etc.

 

[BPM]

Aren't they meant to be putting the residency rule back to 5 years or have I just imagined that?

It's a tough question as I don't think these things are black and white and stuff changes with regards to identity and what not but the system can obviously be abused as well so I can see where you're coming from too.

Anyway, don't want to derail the thread again.

It's not breaking any rules of abusing the system but your country literally has a whole program intended to exploit it ... are you really happy with that?

 

[NickBD]

Considering how cash strapped the RFU is EJ isn't getting sacked with 2 plus years left. They would have to pay him out a lot. EJ won't change until he has to so only real option is for us the tank this 6N so bad EJ has to do something. Finishing 4th or even 5th would be a disaster for him.

 

[BrokenWing]

So with his contract expiring after the World Cup, do you think Eddie gives a crap about developing the England team past that time? Or is he solely concentrating on that and whoever takes over will have to largely rebuild the team?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I don't find it embarrassing that they are playing for Wales. I find it embarrassing that Wales are aggressively amping up their 'exiles' program and are openly saying so.

Instead of investing in a program essentially designed to benefit from years of development work other nations have put in (mostly England in this case), why not actually invest in a better Welsh system? Welsh players should not be looking for a development holiday at places like Hartpury if they intend to play for Wales and IMO it's a very poor advert for Welsh rugby.

Re. Tompkins, I'm pretty sure I read an article where he said that he had no idea he was eligible for Wales until they contacted him. I don't blame him for accepting the call up given there had been no obvious interest from England, but let's not pretend he had ever identified with being Welsh. He clearly hadn't.

I rarely agree with Living Sacrifice, but I think I'd feel very conflicted about representing another country I have no genuine connection to, even if I did qualify through a grandparent etc.

Mate I love the fact we don't agree on a lot of stuff. I read what you write and understand people have different opinions and I always try to embrace that as I know I can be single minded at times. It probably doesn't come across that well on a forum though.

You share the views of a lot of my mates who I've played and drank with for years and I love talking rugby with them. I'm sure we'd have a great pub session discussing rugby.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Looks like Alex Moon was training with England earlier. There was talk of England needing a proper tighthead lock the other day; at 6'8 and 123kg I'd say he fits the bill.

Was wondering what had happened to him.

On the Mercer thing, international rugby is supposed to be for the elite, caps shouldn't be handed out like confetti, being good shouldn't be enough. Most really successful teams have been stable with a lot of heavily capped players and consequently a lot of talented players haven't had the international careers they might have if born at a different time. Bit like Eng now, the difference being that we're playing like drains with several players being picked on reputation including 8 where we're not really sure who's the next cab off the rank. Developing a succession plan and feeding new players in is a key skill for coaches.

On Mercer specifically he's good player but has never really screamed international class to me, a cruiserweight among heavyweights. He definitely doesn't fit Jones current mould, but another coach might try a style that suits him better. For now, you can't blame him for wanting to sample a different lifestyle and, presumably, a bigger salary.