[2021 Six Nations] England Squad

[Reiser99]

Sorry but this all seems mental to me. EJ clearly doesn't see Mercer as an international 8, and frankly neither do I with Dombrandt, Simmonds, Earl, Wilson, Curry and the young Willis all playing better or similar rugby. As a result, EJ's made it clear that Mercer isn't part of his plans and so Mercer is rightly taking a bigger contract in France rather than getting paid less than he's worth in England in the hope that he might get another opportunity. Surely by not stringing Mercer along and making it clear that he's better off taking the contract, EJ's doing the right thing? It's a shame for Bath that Mercer's left but it's not EJ's job to keep players in Bath; it's to pick England squads, and he (IMO, rightly) doesn't see Mercer as a part of those squads.

It's also no good bringing up a load of players who might leave as a result of not being picked as none of them have left, so presumably they're still in contact with EJ.

Kind of agree. However there is clearly an issue with EJ and managing the expectations of young players. How many can honestly say they know exactly what he's looking for in order to get picked. Some are playing their best rugby and probably aren't even being spoken to. Take the Simmonds brothers, apparently the way Exeter play is too structured and he's looking for players who can play heads up rugby. Well we all know this is ********, especially when you look at Farrell, but also when you watch the Simmonds brothers.

We also have lost players abroad who have felt they weren't getting a look it, especially Williams and Redpath in a position we have major issues with. While there are other players who might be ahead of Mercer, the fact that almost no one other than Billy gets a look in means that he doesn't think he has a chance even if he was to improve.

If this continues under Jones, then we're going to have multiple positions with a clear lack of international experience and many good players may be playing elsewhere or for other countries.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

The Mercer situation is correct. A player is told they're not going to get picked so has the opportunity to get paid more and possibly improve and is of an age a future selection for their country isn't out of the question. But youngsters looking at players that are leading at their position not even make the squad, must question their own futures.

You're possibly right and if young players who should be picked start leaving then I'll admit that I was wrong and admit that you're right but until there is actually evidence of that then it's a baseless argument.

 

[Reiser99]

You're possibly right and if young players who should be picked start leaving then I'll admit that I was wrong and admit that you're right but until there is actually evidence of that then it's a baseless argument.

Redpath?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Redpath?

Slightly different argument in that he has another nation he's able to represent. I'm talking more about the likes of Mercer who are (or would be) going abroad for money rather than to play international rugby.

 

[Reiser99]

Slightly different argument in that he has another nation he's able to represent. I'm talking more about the likes of Mercer who are (or would be) going abroad for money rather than to play international rugby.

I get that, but there is clear evidence of young players looking for other options under Jones' tenure.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I get that, but there is clear evidence of young players looking for other options under Jones' tenure.

True enough, although I'd also argue that in Redpath's case EJ clearly was still in contact with him and he had been included in squads; it just appears that Scotland were willing to cap him first, so it's an altogether entirely different situation to Mercer who just wasn't being spoken to anymore.

 

[JG-21]

I think that after the Italy game a large talking point was Randall not getting a chance and that he could still go play for Wales following Moriarty, Tompkins and Johnny Williams in recent years suggests it is happening, maybe not as big names as Redpath, but it is happening

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Lets not forget how many squad and training squad etc Mercer was involved in. He's obviously got talent and would have offered much more in the team than Billy has done over the last year, he's also for leadership qualities.

He's a more rounded player than Uni rig currently but not Simmonds. No idea what Jones looks for in players but I guess a good rugby brain is not one looking at his choices.

 

[BPM]

I get that, but there is clear evidence of young players looking for other options under Jones' tenure.

Is it them looking or vultures circling?

Nick Tompkins didn't know he was eligible until he was effectively headhunted by Wales.

Williams and Redpath were basically promised starting spots playing for countries they have an obvious emotional attachment to. England wouldn't have been able to promise them that and I have no doubt both of their dads were pushing for Wales/Scotland.

Wales have aggressively stepped up their 'exiles' program and are looking pretty desperate to hoover up anyone with even the most tenuous connection so I have no doubt we'll see more of this. Embarrassing really ...

Reading back over other posts, the suggestion that James Grayson should have been in the England squad is fanciful in the extreme. He had some good moments last season but he's really nowhere near the conversation IMO.

 

[JG-21]

Is it them looking or vultures circling?

Nick Tompkins didn't know he was eligible until he was effectively headhunted by Wales.

Williams and Redpath were basically promised starting spots playing for countries they have an obvious emotional attachment to. England wouldn't have been able to promise them that and I have no doubt both of their dads were pushing for Wales/Scotland.

Wales have aggressively stepped up their 'exiles' program and are looking pretty desperate to hoover up anyone with even the most tenuous connection so I have no doubt we'll see more of this. Embarrassing really ...

Reading back over other posts, the suggestion that James Grayson should have been in the England squad is fanciful in the extreme. He had some good moments last season but he's really nowhere near the conversation IMO.

"even James Grayson ... at times have played with form that should've earnt at least a chance to get into future squads" It was more of an embarrassment of riches point. The three mentioned previously and the two fly halves in the current squad are obviously ahead of him, but I stand by that players in form should be considered and get the benefits of the larger England training camps.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I think that after the Italy game a large talking point was Randall not getting a chance and that he could still go play for Wales following Moriarty, Tompkins and Johnny Williams in recent years suggests it is happening, maybe not as big names as Redpath, but it is happening

But again, that's a completely hypothetical argument as Randall hasn't left England for Wales and there's nothing to suggest that he will do. EJ's included him in a camp to show that he has interest in him but hasn't capped him as he doesn't think that he's ready yet - I don't really think that he's ready yet either. So in Randall's case I honestly think that EJ's acted well.

I think I've strayed too far from what I'm actually trying to argue to be honest. My point is that Mercer is a solid club player but not international standard, and so EJ not keeping in contact with him really isn't a failing of his and gives no indication as to whether the likes of Smith, Simmonds, Dombrandt etc. will follow suit, as all of those players are still in contact with EJ. If you want to argue that Redpath going to Scotland does suggest that those players may go abroad then I think I might agree with you, but that's a different argument to the one I'm making.

 

[JG-21]

But again, that's a completely hypothetical argument as Randall hasn't left England for Wales and there's nothing to suggest that he will do. EJ's included him in a camp to show that he has interest in him but hasn't capped him as he doesn't think that he's ready yet - I don't really think that he's ready yet either. So in Randall's case I honestly think that EJ's acted well.

I think I've strayed too far from what I'm actually trying to argue to be honest. My point is that Mercer is a solid club player but not international standard, and so EJ not keeping in contact with him really isn't a failing of his and gives no indication as to whether the likes of Smith, Simmonds, Dombrandt etc. will follow suit, as all of those players are still in contact with EJ. If you want to argue that Redpath going to Scotland does suggest that those players may go abroad then I think I might agree with you, but that's a different argument to the one I'm making.

I appreciate your opinions. A lot of it is hypothetical based on some past decisions. I agree I think the debate moved through a few different points. Lets just hope England get the best players wearing the rose.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Is it them looking or vultures circling?

Nick Tompkins didn't know he was eligible until he was effectively headhunted by Wales.

Williams and Redpath were basically promised starting spots playing for countries they have an obvious emotional attachment to. England wouldn't have been able to promise them that and I have no doubt both of their dads were pushing for Wales/Scotland.

Wales have aggressively stepped up their 'exiles' program and are looking pretty desperate to hoover up anyone with even the most tenuous connection so I have no doubt we'll see more of this. Embarrassing really ...

Reading back over other posts, the suggestion that James Grayson should have been in the England squad is fanciful in the extreme. He had some good moments last season but he's really nowhere near the conversation IMO.

Which Welsh players are you talking about in terms of finding it embarrassing they play for Wales?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Is it them looking or vultures circling?

Nick Tompkins didn't know he was eligible until he was effectively headhunted by Wales.

Williams and Redpath were basically promised starting spots playing for countries they have an obvious emotional attachment to. England wouldn't have been able to promise them that and I have no doubt both of their dads were pushing for Wales/Scotland.

Wales have aggressively stepped up their 'exiles' program and are looking pretty desperate to hoover up anyone with even the most tenuous connection so I have no doubt we'll see more of this. Embarrassing really ...

Reading back over other posts, the suggestion that James Grayson should have been in the England squad is fanciful in the extreme. He had some good moments last season but he's really nowhere near the conversation IMO.

I could be wrong, obviously, but it was my understanding Tompkins always knew he was eligible to play for Wales just that England was clearly his preference.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Which Welsh players are you talking about in terms of finding it embarrassing they play for Wales?

Embarrassing that Wales are looking at England rejects rather than developing their own. Just how like Lancaster went through a phase of doing the same with south hem cast off 'Englishmen' and the same way Scotland to it for the majority of their squads.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Embarrassing that Wales are looking at England rejects rather than developing their own. Just how like Lancaster went through a phase of doing the same with south hem cast off 'Englishmen' and the same way Scotland to it for the majority of their squads.

Which England rejects, though? Tompkins? Who else?

Would you do away with the grandparent rule?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Which England rejects, though? Tompkins? Who else?

Francis, Rowlands, Williams, Tompkins, Ball

I'm sure there's been a few more

Edit: Ollie Kohn lol

Double edit: WillGriff John

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Francis, Rowlands, Williams, Tompkins, Beard

I'm sure there's been a few more

Edit: Ollie Kohn lol

Sheedy literally played for England against the Barbarians before defecting. Think he's eligible for the list.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Francis, Rowlands, Williams, Tompkins, Ball

I'm sure there's been a few more

Edit: Ollie Kohn lol

Rawlands dad is Welsh. As is Williams and Ball I believe. Francis is through a grandmother if I recall correctly. I don't really get the issue here. Should players who have a parent from any particular country not be allowed to play for that country or something? Am I missing something or misunderstanding (more than likely)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Sheedy literally played for England against the Barbarians before defecting. Think he's eligible for the list.

He is Welsh, though, tbf