[2021 Six Nations] England Squad

[Welsh Exile]

It's not breaking any rules of abusing the system but your country literally has a whole program intended to exploit it ... are you really happy with that?

Am I bothered about people like Rowlands and Ball or Johnny Williams who have Welsh fathers but grew up in England? Not at all.

I suppose it's a bit different when you're talking about a grandparent and I'm conflicted on the grandparent rule in all honestly but you seem more bothered about the fact that we have players who have grown up in England and used English facilities and what have you?

Would you class Moriarty a player we stole just because he took a great opportunity as a kid to play for the England under 20s? What about John Williams and his Welsh father as well as Ball and Rowlands?

The Tompkins one does feel a bit different though so I'm undecided. I'll leave it until it turns out whether he's any good or not until I decide whether he's Welsh or English.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Moriarty undoubtedly was created by the English systems:
Hartpury School (RFU funded? If not then it at least is a direct pathway to RFU academy systems)
Gloucester Academy
England u18
England u20

He's definitely Welsh (despite being born in England) but he's very much a product of the RFU.
Same with Williams, Rowlands - ask them a couple of years ago if they want to play for England or Wales. Go back a decade and see which country they dreamed of representing.

I don't think Wales can particularly claim Ball either - born and raised in England, moved to Australia as a young adult and found his rugby footing there. Moved to Wales as a professional athlete.
I would wager he felt more English, and Australian, than Welsh before he got the call from Gatland.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Moriarty undoubtedly was created by the English systems:
Hartpury School (RFU funded? If not then it at least is a direct pathway to RFU academy systems)
Gloucester Academy
England u18
England u20

He's definitely Welsh (despite being born in England) but he's very much a product of the RFU.
Same with Williams, Rowlands - ask them a couple of years ago if they want to play for England or Wales. Go back a decade and see which country they dreamed of representing.

I don't think Wales can particularly claim Ball either - born and raised in England, moved to Australia as a young adult and found his rugby footing there. Moved to Wales as a professional athlete.
I would wager he felt more English, and Australian, than Welsh before he got the call from Gatland.

I wouldn't know as I don't know the guy. I do know his dad is Welsh though. So I don't know what you're saying really, should he still not be allowed to play for Wales even though his dad Welsh?

With regards to Moriarty I agree, he's definrly Welsh, but you won't be surprised to hear that I'm not bothered at all went to school in England or whatever. It's not like I think we should look into controlling the movements and geographical locations where our population breed.

Would you prefer if it was just a blanket you play for the country where you were born and that's it? Maybe we could take the Vunipolas's back seeing as they've got the accent and everything and are blatantly not English (joke)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I wouldn't know as I don't know the guy. I do know his dad is Welsh though. So I don't know what you're saying really, should he still not be allowed to play for Wales even though his dad Welsh?

With regards to Moriarty I agree, he's definrly Welsh, but you won't be surprised to hear that I'm not bothered at all went to school in England or whatever. It's not like I think we should look into controlling the movements and geographical locations where our population breed.

Would you prefer if it was just a blanket you play for the country where you were born and that's it? Maybe we could take the Vunipolas's back seeing as they've got the accent and everything and are blatantly not English (joke)

To be fair I think it comes down to what you want/expect international sport to be

For me it's the best representations of your sporting systems and the players they create - that's why I've no issue with the Vunipolas (full RFU systems graduates), Tuilagi (same) etc. playing for England: because they're products of RFU Rugby, but also why I didn't want Brad Shields (two English parents, but born in/raised in/a product of New Zealand) playing for England.

If your view of international rugby is that it's the best of whoever is qualified, no matter how they're qualified, then fair play - we'll never see eye to eye on this situation as our viewpoints are very different.
I can respect that because everyone's views are different, and maybe if I supported Scotland/Wales etc., with their significantly smaller player bases, I'd have a different viewpoint - but I don't, so here we are

 

[Welsh Exile]

To be fair I think it comes down to what you want/expect international sport to be

For me it's the best representations of your sporting systems and the players they create - that's why I've no issue with the Vunipolas (full RFU systems graduates), Tuilagi (same) etc. playing for England: because they're products of RFU Rugby, but also why I didn't want Brad Shields (two English parents, but born in/raised in/a product of New Zealand) playing for England.

If your view of international rugby is that it's the best of whoever is qualified, no matter how they're qualified, then fair play - we'll never see eye to eye on this situation as our viewpoints are very different.

I definitely think your Balls, Rowlands, Williams' and Moriarty's are fine. You can't make someone ineligible to play for a country that either their mother or father comes from, that, to me, wouldn't seem right. And in this day and age I don't think you can say how someone should feel if they have that link from either parent.

I wouldn't be up in arms if they banned the grandparent rule tomorrow, though, let's put it that way.

 

[BPM]

Am I bothered about people like Rowlands and Ball or Johnny Williams who have Welsh fathers but grew up in England? Not at all.

I suppose it's a bit different when you're talking about a grandparent and I'm conflicted on the grandparent rule in all honestly but you seem more bothered about the fact that we have players who have grown up in England and used English facilities and what have you?

Would you class Moriarty a player we stole just because he took a great opportunity as a kid to play for the England under 20s? What about John Williams and his Welsh father as well as Ball and Rowlands?

The Tompkins one does feel a bit different though so I'm undecided. I'll leave it until it turns out whether he's any good or not until I decide whether he's Welsh or English.

I think you've misunderstood my annoyance. As disappointed as I was to lose Williams, I have no issue with the players with direct, tangible links to Wales, switching allegiance (such as a Welsh parent).

My complaint is against the exiles programme which exists to proactively identify and 'capture' players who qualify for Wales (largely through grandparents etc.) but have had no input in to their development from the Welsh system. Basically, you're actively trying to find more players like Tompkins, which feels entirely wrong to me.

As it stands, a player can feature throughout the age grades for England and if they aren't capped by the time they're 22, Wales or any other home nations who they might be eligible for are immediately sniffing around and trying to turn their heads by promising a quicker route to test rugby. I hate that.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I definitely think your Balls, Rowlands, Williams' and Moriarty's are fine. You can't make someone ineligible to play for a country that either their mother or father comes from, that, to me, wouldn't seem right. And in this day and age I don't think you can say how someone should feel if they have that link from either parent.

Aye, don't get me wrong - I'm not saying they shouldn't be eligible to play based on parentage.

I think I'm confusing my points, really - with the above players it's more to do with the point somewhere above about how Wales are investing time, money and effort into actively searching out players in England (and further afield) who are fully fledged pro players but have a link to Wales, which they've never explored, and offering them caps - rather than investing those resources into their own systems and producing their own talent.
If those players had a true passion to represent Wales (and IMO that should be a pre-requisite for playing international sport) then they'd have been chasing that opportunity before Gatland/Pivac gave them a bell and reminded them that their Granny was born in Abergavenny

 

[Welsh Exile]

Aye, don't get me wrong - I'm not saying they shouldn't be eligible to play based on parentage.

I think I'm confusing my points, really - with the above players it's more to do with the point somewhere above about how Wales are investing time, money and effort into actively searching out players in England (and further afield) who are fully fledged pro players but have a link to Wales, which they've never explored, and offering them caps - rather than investing those resources into their own systems and producing their own talent.
If those players had a true passion to represent Wales (and IMO that should be a pre-requisite for playing international sport) then they'd have been chasing that opportunity before Gatland/Pivac gave them a bell and reminded them that their Granny was born in Abergavenny

For me I'd say why can't we do both (invest and do this) I guess Wales is a lot smaller and poorer so ultimately will have to be more creative as it simply hasn't got the player pool or resources.

If the exile programme unearths more players like Williams and co then I'm all for it. If it's more Tompkins then yeah I hear what you're saying and it's not ideal at all but that's the rules I guess and you can't blame a team for using the system (not saying you are obviously)

I'm not aware how the exile programme really works so perhaps someone can educate me but is it all 100% headhunting or can English based players also notify the WRU/Exile programme of their eligibility off their own back and that just goes on a list? I think 99% of players these days are fully aware of who they can represent and then it's just a question of what country they want to play for.

Just thinking out loud but I'd also say when does a player stop progressing and become the finished product? If you believe players continuously get better and evolve then surely it follows that you can't give sole credit to any single institution or whatever.

Now, as I've said, I'm not a massive fan of the grandparent rule but take Nick Tompkins, he could end up a world class player (or not obviously) but if he does then I think it's fair to say that his development to reach that level would of been, in some part, assisted by the Welsh system so it's not a fixed thing as such maybe.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If the exile programme unearths more players like Williams and co then I'm all for it. If it's more Tompkins then yeah I hear what you're saying and it's not ideal at all but that's the rules I guess and you can't blame a team for using the system (not saying you are obviously)

Is there any difference between Williams and Tompkins?
Williams was all in on England until he took his sabbatical (played England age grage, and also England saxons) - when he came back he had dropped way down the pecking order for England, and the WRU gave him a lifeline for international rugby

 

[Welsh Exile]

Is there any difference between Williams and Tompkins?
Williams was all in on England until he took his sabbatical (played England age grage, and also England saxons) - when he came back he had dropped way down the pecking order for England, and the WRU gave him a lifeline for international rugby

Isn't his full name Jonathan Rhys Bleddyn Williams or something? That's the difference.

Joking aside, if the rules were that as soon as you played age grade rugby you could only play for that country then you might see kids like Moriarty not taking up the opportunity as much moving forward. For all we know a lot of kids who know they're are eligible to play for more than one country will try and progress as far as they can for one country at a young age (I guess the country you live in initially for convenience) and then their plan will be to weigh up options when they get older and see how things are with regards to opportunities. I appreciate that all sounds a bit cold though so I know what you're getting at.

It's hard to really be definitive about it as it's such an individual thing and unless you're part of the players family or close friendship group you're not going to know what's in their heart.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Joking aside, if the rules were that as soon as you played age grade rugby you could only play for that country then you might see kids like Moriarty not taking up the opportunity as much moving forward. For all we know a lot of kids who know they're are eligible to play for more than one country will try and progress as far as they can for one country at a young age (I guess the country you live in initially for convenience) and then their plan will be to weigh up options when they get older and see how things are with regards to opportunities. I appreciate that all sounds a bit cold though so I know what you're getting at.

I'm OK with that tbh,
There have been a number of players who have played age grade for England with no intention of declaring to us long term (Moriarty, Protheroe and Sheedy come to mind)

As I mentioned earlier in the thread: I'd have u20s be capturing sides now - a lot of the time the u20s players have got a couple of seasons of senior pro rugby under their belts, they're old enough to make their choice

International rugby should be a privilege not a career path

 

[Which Tyler]

So with his contract expiring after the World Cup, do you think Eddie gives a crap about developing the England team past that time? Or is he solely concentrating on that and whoever takes over will have to largely rebuild the team?

It's part of his brief, though I suspect it's a minor part. It's still a part he's fulfilling nicely though.
Current 6N squad of 29 has an average age of 26.5. We've got 6 players over 30 for whom the RWC (if they make it) will be their swan song (MakoV, George, Lawes, Wilson, Youngs, May). Then there's another 8 who will turn 30 by then, who would need to be transitioned out of the squad by 2027 (Sinckler, LCD, BillyV, Robson, Ford, Farrell, Slade, Daly)

So no, whoever takes over won't have to rebuild anymore than any other national coach after a RWC.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

To be honest, is anyone really that bothered by the ones who have got away? I mean specifically the England eligible players that have now been capped by other nations? I can't think of a single player that makes me think 'Wow, I wish we'd have capped him first, he's better than anything we've got!' Just to pull out a few names getting mentioned on here: Tompkins' first couple of games for Wales were good, and then his form fell off a cliff. Johnny Williams has been okay so far, but nothing really notable. Redpath had a good game against England, but then so did every Scot that day. He's only played one international, so it's impossible to tell how he's gonna turn out. Tomas Francis is often a bench player despite Wales' front 5 problems. Will Rowlands is... er... who is he again? Gary Graham has been solid, but nowhere near the impact of Curry, Underhill and Willis. Can anybody think of anyone that we really should have capped but didn't and now they're lost to us? Personally, I don't think Eddie's done too badly judging who is England international quality and who isn't.

Also, Eddie has always said he wants players who want to play for England. If they do, they take on board his comments, knuckle down and work hard and try to improve so they can get in the squad. Sure, there are some issues around favourites blocking their path in a few positions, but that's a slightly different matter. When players decide that rather than work hard to get into an England team that has huge competition for places they'd rather play for a country like Wales or Scotland that doesn't have so much competition for places, I'm happy to see them go quite frankly. England's team should be full of the best-of-the-best from a great big pot of players, not guys who'd rather take the easy out of playing for a smaller nation just because they're more likely to get a game.

(English arrogance R Us! )

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

It's part of his brief, though I suspect it's a minor part. It's still a part he's fulfilling nicely though.
Current 6N squad of 29 has an average age of 26.5. We've got 6 players over 30 for whom the RWC (if they make it) will be their swan song (MakoV, George, Lawes, Wilson, Youngs, May). Then there's another 8 who will turn 30 by then, who would need to be transitioned out of the squad by 2027 (Sinckler, LCD, BillyV, Robson, Ford, Farrell, Slade, Daly)

So no, whoever takes over won't have to rebuild anymore than any other national coach after a RWC.

I'm of the school that Jones doesn't give a toss about development. I'm pretty sure he's said as much.

Yes, although if you judge everything by RWCs as Jones seems to, you want your team to be peaking at those tournaments. Some of those you mention are clearly not as good as they were, let alone likely to improve by 23.

We've currently got our most experienced squad ever. But if that is the bedrock of the 23 squad as seems likely then there will be a lot of retirements / players past their peak for a new coach to take on. Also the likes of Marler, already 30, and Launch will fade from the scene post 23.

A new coach looking to build the team for 27 will have Curry and Underhill inked in, although plenty of challengers for those shirts. Who else with experience? Itoje, Watson and Genge are all possibles but will be 32 in 27.

I think there will be a lot less continuity between the 23 and 27 teams than we've seen in the past.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

To be honest, is anyone really that bothered by the ones who have got away? I mean specifically the England eligible players that have now been capped by other nations? I can't think of a single player that makes me think 'Wow, I wish we'd have capped him first, he's better than anything we've got!' Just to pull out a few names getting mentioned on here: Tompkins' first couple of games for Wales were good, and then his form fell off a cliff. Johnny Williams has been okay so far, but nothing really notable. Redpath had a good game against England, but then so did every Scot that day. He's only played one international, so it's impossible to tell how he's gonna turn out. Tomas Francis is often a bench player despite Wales' front 5 problems. Will Rowlands is... er... who is he again? Gary Graham has been solid, but nowhere near the impact of Curry, Underhill and Willis. Can anybody think of anyone that we really should have capped but didn't and now they're lost to us? Personally, I don't think Eddie's done too badly judging who is England international quality and who isn't.

Also, Eddie has always said he wants players who want to play for England. If they do, they take on board his comments, knuckle down and work hard and try to improve so they can get in the squad. Sure, there are some issues around favourites blocking their path in a few positions, but that's a slightly different matter. When players decide that rather than work hard to get into an England team that has huge competition for places they'd rather play for a country like Wales or Scotland that doesn't have so much competition for places, I'm happy to see them go quite frankly. England's team should be full of the best-of-the-best from a great big pot of players, not guys who'd rather take the easy out of playing for a smaller nation just because they're more likely to get a game.

(English arrogance R Us! )

I'm not bothered by any players getting away. More bothered that every six nations you could probably make a starting 15 of south African players.

I don't know about others but having foreign players in the England team actually annoys me. Will player X who isn't really English play with as much passion and deserve it as much as player Y who has dreamed of wearing the white shirt their whole life?
Maybe they do but it's annoying to me but I get how others aren't too bothered about it.

Players like Flutey though make a mockery of the whole thing. There are other more recent examples but at least our current 23 isn't too foreign compared to most teams.

 

[LIONSxv]

Eddie talks about caps profile and winning world cups. Which a fair point. However I think he needs to look at age profile too. If he continues with the group he has now.. He will have 8 or 9 30+ starters by the time tne next WC comes along.
The game has moved on since England did that in 03.
Surely he could at least cap players in form like Smith, Randell, Dombrandt and have a look at Isiekwe, kpoku and Barbary. Who are all potential x factor players. He could do this whilst still having 9 or 10 of the starting XV with 50 + caps

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Eddie talks about caps profile and winning world cups. Which a fair point. However I think he needs to look at age profile too. If he continues with the group he has now.. He will have 8 or 9 30+ starters by the time tne next WC comes along.
The game has moved on since England did that in 03.

This is true, but I don't think there's anything to suggest that EJ won't move on to younger players before 2023. In game 2 of the 2017 6N (so the same way through that RWC cycle as we now are through the current one) EJ played a team of Marler, Hartley, Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Itoje, Clifford, Hughes, Youngs, Ford, Daly, Farrell, Joseph, Nowell, Brown. Only 6 of those players went on to start the RWC Final. At that point, Hartley, Cole and Brown all seemed undroppable (the same complaints people now have about Faz, Vunipola, Youngs and Daly), no one knew who Curry was and Underhill was still in Wales. I imagine the 2023 RWC team will be plenty different to the one we have currently.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

This is true, but I don't think there's anything to suggest that EJ won't move on to younger players before 2023. In game 2 of the 2017 6N (so the same way through that RWC cycle as we now are through the current one) EJ played a team of Marler, Hartley, Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Itoje, Clifford, Hughes, Youngs, Ford, Daly, Farrell, Joseph, Nowell, Brown. Only 6 of those players went on to start the RWC Final. At that point, Hartley, Cole and Brown all seemed undroppable (the same complaints people now have about Faz, Vunipola, Youngs and Daly), no one knew who Curry was and Underhill was still in Wales. I imagine the 2023 RWC team will be plenty different to the one we have currently.

But didn't it take a combination of injuries and our worst 6n ever before he looked at changes? That's the thing, last time round it seems the changes were forced and not part of any greater planning. If we don't have an absolutely awful tournament, what's to say he will change anything? In 2017 we were still on the winning streak, although playing worse. I'd say the form of the current crop of players we are concerned about is worse than those we complained about in 2017.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Don't think EJ's issue has been that he doesn't look at new players - we've got a load of props, locks and flankers knocking around now - the issue is he doesn't look at players in certain positions.
Since EJ took charge he's capped 46 new players,

• Zero flyhalves,
• Three scrumhalves (though I think Spencer's England career can be counted in seconds rather than caps, and Heinz' inclusion was a panic pre-RWC),
• Two 8s (though a couple of the flankers he capped could play there i.e. Wilson)

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Two 8s (though a couple of the flankers he capped could play there i.e. Wilson)

3, no? Mercer, Simmonds and Hughes.