[2020 Six Nations] England vs Ireland (23/02/20)

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Slade at 15 over Daly is worst IMO.
At least Daly has international experience at that position now.

Starting Slade over him at 15 would be even more bizarre

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Slade at 15 over Daly is worst IMO.
At least Daly has international experience at that position now.

Starting Slade over him at 15 would be even more bizarre

To be fair Slade also got quite a bit of time there during the RWC, and looked better than Daly there IMO. Obviously still a poor option given that he's not a 15, but I genuinely think he'd fare better there than Daly.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Isnt it bad when Daly at 15 and youngs still playing is the least of our worries....

We have a lot of worries, but in fairness those 2 still rank pretty highly.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Loving all the vitriol towards Eddie on this thread. Yes, he's deliberately trying to lose, of course he is.

We have a big injury problem in the back 3 at the moment and in the backs in general. From the back 3 we're missing Watson, Nowell, Cokanasiga and now Furbank. So does he put a first-cap player like Thorley in there or, considering who we're facing, does he go with experience and push JJ, a good defender and pacy stepper, to the wing, where he has played in spots for England? Well, he's gone for experience over raw potential, that's his decision.

And with JJ on the wing, he has to stick with Ford-Faz, otherwise he's putting two players back from injury into the centres to start (Tuilagi and Slade), which is probably not wise. Besides, Faz is an excellent 12. He's done very well for us there, and very well for the Lions there. I don't get all the hate towards him playing at 12.

So, with so many backs missing through injury or just coming back from injury, a 6-2 split on the bench seems sensible due to the lack of options. Not sure why Ludlam's dropped out completely (is he injured?), but I don't hate Lawes at 6. He carries hard, makes big hits and gives us an extra lineout option. Throw in an all-Lions tight 5 and Curry and Underhill in the back row and that's a pretty sweet pack to be starting. Our scrum has already won 5 penalties in the first 2 games while conceding none, and both the French and Scottish lineout repeatedly lost throws against us. Set piece has been the biggest positive by far this 6 nations. Well done, Matt Proudfoot.

As for 2 more locks on the bench... not sure. Maybe targetting the Irish lineout?

Eddie has repeatedly said he wants us to learn how to play differently without Binny because Binny is a one-of-a-kind type of player. So he's doing things differently, challenging the team to adapt, to be flexible, to change and learn, to play without a big crashball 8 and use the skills and talents they do have to solve problems on the field. Which is what everybody has been complaining they have been unable to do in the past. I'm expecting (hoping for!) a big performance from England on Sunday. We're at home, we've had 5 weeks or so for the new coaches, players and systems to bed in, and we've lost just twice at Twickers in the previous nine 6N tournaments, and only twice in Eddie's entire reign (compared to 23 wins).

 

[munstermuffin]

England's chances just improved somewhat

To be honest I think it improves Ireland. Henderson has been ok. Toner improves our setpiece and will add a different dimension and then Dillane will be a superb impact

 

[TRF_Olyy]

To be honest I think it improves Ireland. Henderson has been ok. Toner improves our setpiece and will add a different dimension and then Dillane will be a superb impact

I'm sorry but no side has ever been improved by the addition of the upright giraffe.

He's a special teams lineout player, nothing more.

He carries hard

Your post lost credibility with this.
Lawes is an incredibly ineffectual carrier.

 

[Jakedood]

I'm sorry but no side has ever been improved by the addition of the upright giraffe.

He's a special teams lineout player, nothing more.

Quite handy when your hookers in the past cant hit a lineout... Herring is on par with Best

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Ahh Toner is deec. Def not an improvement on Henderson but he's added a bit of much needed grunt to his game since 2017 or so, definitely don't think it's a massive loss.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

I'm sorry but no side has ever been improved by the addition of the upright giraffe.

He's a special teams lineout player, nothing more.



Your post lost credibility with this.
Lawes is an incredibly ineffectual carrier.

It was only a couple of years ago that people were saying how he'd become such an effective carrier since Eddie took over England and that it was an area that Eddie had really improved him on. I've seen Lawes get across the gainline many times.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't remember that, and he certainly doesn't look it to my eyes.
He rarely makes yards, just gets ruined on the gainline because he carrying position is so poor. Stats back that up as well.

 

[Groundhog]

Not upset Toner is in. Line speed was mad against Scotland he was crushing lads. Expect him to be hungry, get through work and not put much of a foot wrong, but we do lose an important carrier.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

For a lock, Lawes is a pretty handy ball carrier. For an international 6, his ball carrying is woeful.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

For a lock, Lawes is a pretty handy ball carrier. For an international 6, his ball carrying is woeful.

Well, Lawes will now either have a monster game as a carrier on Sunday or disappear completely.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Henderson out because his wife gave birth. What a ******* asshole, don't plough your wife 9 months before a game at Twickenham.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

So does he put a first-cap player like Thorley in there or, considering who we're facing, does he go with experience and push JJ, a good defender and pacy stepper, to the wing, where he has played in spots for England? Well, he's gone for experience over raw potential, that's his decision.

Why not Thorley? He's a bloody winger and next in line.

He's been in the squad and by picking JJ Jones has just told Thorley that he really doesn't trust him. It's a big game, but so are most that the Eng team play, you've got to look out for young players but we shouldn't nanny them either. There's no law to say that debuts have to be made against tier 2.

JJ's played on the wing for about half an hour. He's a very good defender at 13, but that's an entirely different skill set to wing. I'm not sure he is that pacy any more and certainly not by wing standards. This could horribly backfire.

So, with so many backs missing through injury or just coming back from injury, a 6-2 split on the bench seems sensible due to the lack of options

Polar opposite in my book. Daly and JJ are going to get tested to within an inch of their lives and we have no tactical options to replace them if they're having a mare (Slade's as much a FB as I am). There's always a high chance that Manu won't finish the match, esp as just coming back from injury, and if Slade is properly fit (questionable) he's going to be flipping rusty with the possibility of having to play in one of his less favoured positions. Having only 2 back subs is v high risk.

Eddie has repeatedly said he wants us to learn how to play differently without Binny because Binny is a one-of-a-kind type of player.

Has he? Would that also explain why he's picked Binny every time he's reached 50% fitness and then stuck with him even when he's been palpably out of sorts? Was it also why he tried Hughes? FWIW I think we do need to move on from Binny, but that doesn't mean playing a potentially world class flanker at 8 when we have some very decent specialists we could blood. And his whole the game's getting more fluid justification for Curry at 8 holds precisely no water when he replaces him on the flank with a lock.

I'm getting onboard with @livingsacrifice.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

EJ was happy enough to throw Furbank, who has less top level experience than Thorley, straight in at fullback away in Paris.

While Ireland is a more intense side than France, wing is less harsh for a debutant than fullback and it's at home too.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Henderson out because his wife gave birth. What a ******* asshole, don't plough your wife 9 months before a game at Twickenham.

I thought that a few weeks ago about LCD, but his timing was fine. The baby was premature and is still in hospital but seemingly doing OK which is great news.

 

[Grizwald]

Jesus Eddie is frustrsting, made picking players out of positon an art form will be going in the dictionary soon.... Pulling an Eddie.....

Biggest issues for me are JJ and sticking Lawes at 6 (pretty much over his Curry at 8 decesion). Not fancying us for this at all. Down at Twickenham for the Wales game.

 

[munstermuffin]

Henderson out because his wife gave birth. What a ******* asshole, don't plough your wife 9 months before a game at Twickenham.

Big difference from lads in past who skipped the birth. Claw played a match before for us while his mrs was giving birth. He knew she was having the child but simply put it "am I better pushing here in a scrum and having a few scoops after or watching her push"

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Why not Thorley? He's a bloody winger and next in line.

He's been in the squad and by picking JJ Jones has just told Thorley that he really doesn't trust him. It's a big game, but so are most that the Eng team play, you've got to look out for young players but we shouldn't nanny them either. There's no law to say that debuts have to be made against tier 2.

JJ's played on the wing for about half an hour. He's a very good defender at 13, but that's an entirely different skill set to wing. I'm not sure he is that pacy any more and certainly not by wing standards. This could horribly backfire.



Polar opposite in my book. Daly and JJ are going to get tested to within an inch of their lives and we have no tactical options to replace them if they're having a mare (Slade's as much a FB as I am). There's always a high chance that Manu won't finish the match, esp as just coming back from injury, and if Slade is properly fit (questionable) he's going to be flipping rusty with the possibility of having to play in one of his less favoured positions. Having only 2 back subs is v high risk.


Has he? Would that also explain why he's picked Binny every time he's reached 50% fitness and then stuck with him even when he's been palpably out of sorts? Was it also why he tried Hughes? FWIW I think we do need to move on from Binny, but that doesn't mean playing a potentially world class flanker at 8 when we have some very decent specialists we could blood. And his whole the game's getting more fluid justification for Curry at 8 holds precisely no water when he replaces him on the flank with a lock.

I'm getting onboard with @livingsacrifice.

Okay, so he doesn't trust Thorley. That's his job as coach, to decide whether players are worth their spot. Clearly he thinks Thorley is good enough for the squad but not yet good enough for matches. He also clearly thought Furbank was good enough to start in Paris as a first cap. He sees training every day, the dynamic between players, how well players are adapting to the international arena etc, then makes his decisions. He's got 3 summer matches to blood Thorley. Right now, Thorley's not shown Eddie he's a better option on the wing than JJ. That says something about Thorley to my mind and I personally trust the judgement of a coach with Eddie's history of success.

Also, has JJ really lost his pace? He's only 28.

Is Eddie taking a risk with 6-2? Well yes he is, I agree with what you're saying, it is a risk. But Eddie's never been a conservative coach. That's why he's won a World Cup, the 6N, Tri-Nations etc. If he didn't take risks, he wouldn't be half as successful. The gambles won't all work, but a lot of them have, his record speaks for that. We had a conservative coach in Lancaster and won zip. Eddie's a dynamic coach, constantly changing to try to make his team better.

Eddie's been saying we need to learn to play without Binny since he went down injured for this 6N. Sorry, should have been clearer. But has Curry really reached his full potential at 21? Richard Hill could play anywhere in the backrow, so why can't Curry be that player too? Imagine if he does become that player!