It's less that he seems to be preparing for worst case and more planning 6-2 permanently in the future with one forward always cover for the backline. He really does seem to think that individual skill can make up for experience and positioning at international level...
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[2020 Six Nations] England vs Ireland (23/02/20)
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It's less that he seems to be preparing for worst case and more planning 6-2 permanently in the future with one forward always cover for the backline. He really does seem to think that individual skill can make up for experience and positioning at international level...
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Not sure on that 2 games on the trot both with predicted pretty shite weather.
It's a tactic that not just Eddie uses in those conditions.
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It's more the hybrid cr*p that he said rather than the contingency planning that really got my goat.
That said, any scenario where a flanker with 10 minutes international experience could conceivably end up on the wing against the best ariel team in the world in squally conditions is just lunacy. The starting back 3 is giving Ire an open goal, let alone what might happen later in the match.
Not Eddie Jones
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So Eddie is mad, stupid, stubborn and trolling the armchair fans (who are always right, and that's a fact!). Or, Eddie's been winning rugby games for 25 years as a coach, won the WC, the 6N, the Tri-Nations, the Pacific Nations Cup and the Super Rugby ***le, has an 80% win record with his current team and is constantly seeking to innovate. I know which one I find most likely.
Players can't transition to other positions? How about Eddie moving Daly from centre to wing and Daly being such a success he ended up starting there for the Lions against NZ? Why is he picking three locks in the starting pack? According to The 42 website, the Irish think it's a smart move to counter O'Mahoney in the lineout. Why pick two more locks on the bench? Again, the Irish over at The 42 think it's a smart move to have plenty of big men coming off the bench to beast Ireland in the latter stages. Ireland have to now be favourites? With Twickenham a fortress and England having 12 Lions in the starting XV (the other three being those hopeless plodders Curry, Underhill and Ford)? Ireland can win, sure they can, but favourites? Only with Planet Rugby, and their predictions are the kiss of death.
So why does he keep picking players out of position? Here's a quote from his book about that time when he suggested Nowell as a 7:
"Rugby has become very methodical. You watch teams now and you can tell what they are going to do. I went to a Pro14 match the other week and you could almost call the game. You have to look at opportunities to do things differently. The game goes through phases... You have to be radical in your thinking... The only time the eight forwards are together is at a scrum and you could have a ninth forward standing on the blindside wing. It is like when Barcelona won the Champions League playing with a false nine. You always have to look at how you can add more to your team. Our strength is our forward pack. How can we make it even stronger?" (He apparently did use a ninth forward in a game when coaching Japan. He points out too that forwards have a much higher work rate than backs, so how do you deal with that problem? Clue: you innovate.)
Eddie is constantly thinking outside the box to try to improve this team. He's right about it's easy to predict what teams are going to do. Look at Ireland under Schmidt or Wales under Gatland. Everybody knew what was coming and therefore worked on a way to counter it. If the media and the fans on these boards have no idea what Eddie's doing with his England selection, surely the Ireland team is going to be none the wiser. Who knows what we'll see from England on Sunday... but that's exactly the point!
Players can't transition to other positions? How about Eddie moving Daly from centre to wing and Daly being such a success he ended up starting there for the Lions against NZ? Why is he picking three locks in the starting pack? According to The 42 website, the Irish think it's a smart move to counter O'Mahoney in the lineout. Why pick two more locks on the bench? Again, the Irish over at The 42 think it's a smart move to have plenty of big men coming off the bench to beast Ireland in the latter stages. Ireland have to now be favourites? With Twickenham a fortress and England having 12 Lions in the starting XV (the other three being those hopeless plodders Curry, Underhill and Ford)? Ireland can win, sure they can, but favourites? Only with Planet Rugby, and their predictions are the kiss of death.
So why does he keep picking players out of position? Here's a quote from his book about that time when he suggested Nowell as a 7:
"Rugby has become very methodical. You watch teams now and you can tell what they are going to do. I went to a Pro14 match the other week and you could almost call the game. You have to look at opportunities to do things differently. The game goes through phases... You have to be radical in your thinking... The only time the eight forwards are together is at a scrum and you could have a ninth forward standing on the blindside wing. It is like when Barcelona won the Champions League playing with a false nine. You always have to look at how you can add more to your team. Our strength is our forward pack. How can we make it even stronger?" (He apparently did use a ninth forward in a game when coaching Japan. He points out too that forwards have a much higher work rate than backs, so how do you deal with that problem? Clue: you innovate.)
Eddie is constantly thinking outside the box to try to improve this team. He's right about it's easy to predict what teams are going to do. Look at Ireland under Schmidt or Wales under Gatland. Everybody knew what was coming and therefore worked on a way to counter it. If the media and the fans on these boards have no idea what Eddie's doing with his England selection, surely the Ireland team is going to be none the wiser. Who knows what we'll see from England on Sunday... but that's exactly the point!
Less to do with the 6-2 ratio and more on the comment about a player who can play well in the back row and backline.
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I totally agree with Jones on that, which is 100% the fault of coaches and the legions of video analysts.
All in favour of innovating, but you can be innovative without putting players in positions that they're clearly going to be uncomfortable in. I'm fully in favour of coaches empowering players to play what's in front of them - all the noises that have come out of the Eng camp in the past is that Jones likes players who stick to his script and don't go off piste hence the tactical inflexibility we've seen time and again.
One of the reasons that the ABs have been consistently successful, and will be again, is that they do have their structures but they're also given licence to attack when they see its on. I wouldn't particularly call them innovators, rather aware and rugby smart which is engrained in them from an early age.
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But you never know with EJ
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The worst thing for my by far is that this is crapping on all the players who could be playing or in the EPS or being invested in to become full international players in time. Proper sticks two fingers up. It's a huge clique.
Look at Fazlet at 12. Not only is he blocking other 10s from coming in, he is blocking potential 12s. Look to NZ. NZ aren't afraid to bring in new players and give them experience and yet also have a core squad and are able to call in capable back ups in case of injury or circumstance. England with all their player depth don't even have this. Hell, they don't even have a 6, 8, 12, 11/14, 15 (never mind the bench) through design. There's lateral thinking which I can get behind then there's this. It will take literally years to untangle this mess, if the RFU manage to make the right appointment which I'm sceptical of.
Look at Fazlet at 12. Not only is he blocking other 10s from coming in, he is blocking potential 12s. Look to NZ. NZ aren't afraid to bring in new players and give them experience and yet also have a core squad and are able to call in capable back ups in case of injury or circumstance. England with all their player depth don't even have this. Hell, they don't even have a 6, 8, 12, 11/14, 15 (never mind the bench) through design. There's lateral thinking which I can get behind then there's this. It will take literally years to untangle this mess, if the RFU manage to make the right appointment which I'm sceptical of.
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I mean what other potential 12 is there really?
20 year old Lawrence who had played 2 games in 2 months prior to selection seems to be the one most people have their eyes on.
I don't think England has as much quality depth ready for international as some make out to believe.
I do think Dombrandt is ready for International rugby as is Thorely and I do think Eddie is being too stubborn with those. dombrandt at 8 should help the 6 situation as it would move Underhill or Currey. Hill is promising but could see why it might be the case of waiting for the summer tour.
But I can't think of many 12's I would say should be in the England team ahead of Farrell and Ford (as a 10). Luke James and OL both look great but don't know what Luke James v Redpath situation is at sale maybe @TRF_Olyy could me more of a idea. Personally currently I prefer James.
Maybe Manu 12 and Marchant at 13. But Joe being in NZ and coming back for the summer tests could well be better for him long term.
Same for 15's, Furbank seems solid but about it currently. We have some highly rated 15's coming through but that is still some time away, and really can't think of many players in the prem putting their hands up, with Watson being injured.
9's I do think someone should get another go but not sold on Randall as being the answer, I think Mitchell might have the best chance.
For me if Eddie dosen't give the likes of Dombrandt, Thorely, Marchant/Lawrance/James maybe Hill and Mitchell chances at least in the Summer tours that will be when I lose faith in him.
20 year old Lawrence who had played 2 games in 2 months prior to selection seems to be the one most people have their eyes on.
I don't think England has as much quality depth ready for international as some make out to believe.
I do think Dombrandt is ready for International rugby as is Thorely and I do think Eddie is being too stubborn with those. dombrandt at 8 should help the 6 situation as it would move Underhill or Currey. Hill is promising but could see why it might be the case of waiting for the summer tour.
But I can't think of many 12's I would say should be in the England team ahead of Farrell and Ford (as a 10). Luke James and OL both look great but don't know what Luke James v Redpath situation is at sale maybe @TRF_Olyy could me more of a idea. Personally currently I prefer James.
Maybe Manu 12 and Marchant at 13. But Joe being in NZ and coming back for the summer tests could well be better for him long term.
Same for 15's, Furbank seems solid but about it currently. We have some highly rated 15's coming through but that is still some time away, and really can't think of many players in the prem putting their hands up, with Watson being injured.
9's I do think someone should get another go but not sold on Randall as being the answer, I think Mitchell might have the best chance.
For me if Eddie dosen't give the likes of Dombrandt, Thorely, Marchant/Lawrance/James maybe Hill and Mitchell chances at least in the Summer tours that will be when I lose faith in him.
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Devoto should have been nailed on 12 for ages, he's pretty much exactly what England have wanted yet...
The problem isn't that Faz is a bad 12 because he isn't, it's the knock on effect of the kind of 13 you need outside to make Ford/Faz axis work, making Faz automatic 10 cover, and who you have as a replacement 12 and a replacement 13. Domino effect, shall we say? This is then magnified with similar situations throughout the squad, snowballing and we end up with this horror show we have now with no future planning and little experience outside of the clique.
The problem isn't that Faz is a bad 12 because he isn't, it's the knock on effect of the kind of 13 you need outside to make Ford/Faz axis work, making Faz automatic 10 cover, and who you have as a replacement 12 and a replacement 13. Domino effect, shall we say? This is then magnified with similar situations throughout the squad, snowballing and we end up with this horror show we have now with no future planning and little experience outside of the clique.
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Dombrandt's exclusion is ridiculous. He's ready.
Thorley would have been a bit of a risk, but is an inexperienced winger more of a risk than an out of position centre who hasn't been tearing up trees in his proper position.
I don't hate Farrell at 12, but I'd prefer a specialist there. Devoto was worth a shot, same with Woodward at FB......maybe not the most exquisitely gifted, but talent's only part of the story. They're good, quite physical, players who instinctively understand those positions and would probably have been solid. Wouldn't have been pinpointed by opponents as potential liabilities.
SH is just a running sore where Jones (in)actions are beyond comprehension.
Odds are that a good number of youngsters are going to Japan in the summer. How much we'll learn is open to question - they may be part of a fairly scratch team and Japan won't be the same challenge they were in the RWC when their players solely focussed on that for months on end.
Thorley would have been a bit of a risk, but is an inexperienced winger more of a risk than an out of position centre who hasn't been tearing up trees in his proper position.
I don't hate Farrell at 12, but I'd prefer a specialist there. Devoto was worth a shot, same with Woodward at FB......maybe not the most exquisitely gifted, but talent's only part of the story. They're good, quite physical, players who instinctively understand those positions and would probably have been solid. Wouldn't have been pinpointed by opponents as potential liabilities.
SH is just a running sore where Jones (in)actions are beyond comprehension.
Odds are that a good number of youngsters are going to Japan in the summer. How much we'll learn is open to question - they may be part of a fairly scratch team and Japan won't be the same challenge they were in the RWC when their players solely focussed on that for months on end.
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I disagree with Devoto worth a go yes.
But I haven't seen anything from him in the prem to suggest he should've been nailed on 12 for years.
But I haven't seen anything from him in the prem to suggest he should've been nailed on 12 for years.
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IMO to be in an England 1st choice 15 you need to be either pushing 'World Class' territory or have the potential to be 'World Class'. Devoto is far from either of those things.
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So in summary: 4 13s (albeit the one playing at 13 is probably better at 12), 5 locks, apparently only one number 8 in the country worthy of a place in the England 23 and two distinctly average 9s.
I mean I'm always hopeful but I can't say I'm optimistic.
I mean I'm always hopeful but I can't say I'm optimistic.
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Wouldn't be surprised if we don't see Redpath again in a sale shirt
He's got three years left on his contract but is being linked with bath and Exeter - think it's a bit of an umaga situation where he thinks he's bigger than his current role in the squad.
Dimes was asked about it after last night's game and apparently didn't sound happy with Redpath
Luke James is firmly ahead of him in the pecking order (hence the start last night and Redpath not even making the bench after Ashton dropped) and he's significantly better
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All this talk of innovation being good is without any evidence in terms of playing players out of position . Look
But our 9 isn't, nor our 10, or our 8 (he's a class 7 but not an 8), our 6 is the 3rd best 6 in the team, our FB is far from world class, our winger (who is a 13) is miles off world class.
So not sure your point stands,
But our 9 isn't, nor our 10, or our 8 (he's a class 7 but not an 8), our 6 is the 3rd best 6 in the team, our FB is far from world class, our winger (who is a 13) is miles off world class.
So not sure your point stands,
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The name and early hype can be killer for teams.
Once a young player starts using a agent to try and strong-arm a team you have to let them go really as it will only get worse when they get older.
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I understand what you're saying but to others this could be the classic "English arrogance" where just solid/decent/good is more than enough with that class/X factor around them. It is a team game after all. Players can grow into world class given time too.
Is every All Black side a world class 1-15? Hell no. It's more complex than that and doesn't happen by chance.
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It is more complex than that, but their players usually all show the regular xfactor at club level. (Well a good AB side)
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I think Devoto definitely deserves a shot at 12
You don't know for sure if someone is made out for international rugby without giving them a crack there
Is he the best 12 in the world? No. But for all we know he could gel fantastically with whoever we play at 10 and 13, and strong units are often better than the sum of their parts
You don't know for sure if someone is made out for international rugby without giving them a crack there
Is he the best 12 in the world? No. But for all we know he could gel fantastically with whoever we play at 10 and 13, and strong units are often better than the sum of their parts
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