[2020 Autumn Nations Cup] Wales vs England (28/11/20)

[Jimbo]

Oh I see. He was mean to me so I will be mean back.
Look I understand where you are coming from.. I grew up with the same BS coming from English fans but even at a young age I decided not to partake in gloating. Makes me feel better with myself. Each to their own I guess!

I get your rising above it and fair play but I am not sure this is the same thing, Welsh fans (for the most part) appear to have an attitude of almost not caring who wins any competition as long as it's not England, if the Welsh lost consecutive games but beat England they would probably call it a success.

 

[Reiser99]

The issue I have is it feels a bit like 2017 where we were still winning but it felt scrappy and unconvincing. We are defending pretty well but it feels extremely all or nothing, we rely on stopping teams on the gain line but our defence is actually pretty poor if players miss their first up tackles or we can't stop teams on the gain line. We aren't playing what's in front of us, we are playing what we are being coached to, which means if sides find out how to counter it we are ******. Once teams start chipping over the top or dropping bombs on our wings, our defence too often begins to crumble. Considering our gameplan relies so heavily on kicking, we are actually pretty poor at defending against it done to us.

Dunno, then it felt like we were just about winning, while playing badly and I couldn't see performances improving.

Now we are winning relatively comfortably and it feels like while we haven't played great, we also haven't really been forced to and we actually have higher gears if we needed. While I don't necessarily like it, I do think EJ was being honest by saying attack is the last area he wants to develop. He clearly wants to get England dominating the tackle and the breakdown and the put pressure through kicks. England have done this relatively well except for the kicking at times. They haven't really needed to produce a great attacking display because they are winning just by doing the basics well.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

we actually have higher gears if we needed

We definitely have higher gears but I think the gear stick has snapped off tbh

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Dunno, then it felt like we were just about winning, while playing badly and I couldn't see performances improving.

Now we are winning relatively comfortably and it feels like while we haven't played great, we also haven't really been forced to and we actually have higher gears if we needed. While I don't necessarily like it, I do think EJ was being honest by saying attack is the last area he wants to develop. He clearly wants to get England dominating the tackle and the breakdown and the put pressure through kicks. England have done this relatively well except for the kicking at times. They haven't really needed to produce a great attacking display because they are winning just by doing the basics well.

We may have higher gears but I think the clutch is buggered.

 

[Ospervat]

As an England supporter I would say simply this:-
Wales lost because-:
1) They weren't the best side on the pitch.
2) Poite made some very poor decisions on both sides however more in favour of England.

I've been an outspoken critic of Poite for a number of years as my posts will show. He is notorious for bad decisions even when he has the on-field opportunity to take impartial advice and direction.

His arrogant ineptitude has cost many-a-side a victory.
He does remind me of the likes of Steve Walsh who had been corrupted by bribery.
Nothing would surprise me.

The sooner the IRB gets rid of him the better off the game will be.

 

[Tooting Carmen]

One thing Wales did do, which Ireland last week really did not, was to contain Jonny May.

 

[Scotty]

Yeah that seems inconclusive. Francis didn't seem to make much of it during the time so it was probably nothing. You would imagine getting headbutted would make you go nuts (or even play acting more to bring attention to it)

Inconclusive but possible. Surly though if it was a headbutt then there would have been even more direct anger towards Genge. It seems theres the scuffle and he does that but it isnt directly reacted to so i doubt it was.

Deserves a ban if he did it unfortunatly

 

[TRF_Olyy]

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

You'd think if he did headbutt him that both Francis and AWJ would have been at the ref demanding a TMO review. That's the sort of thing where you are well within your rights to kick up a fuss. The fact they didn't appear to and Francis simply had the team marched back 10 for backchat implies he was just getting arsey rather than it being a headbutt.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Yeah that seems inconclusive. Francis didn't seem to make much of it during the time so it was probably nothing. You would imagine getting headbutted would make you go nuts (or even play acting more to bring attention to it)

Do people really think AWJ would've just stood there if Genge headbutted Francis right in front of him.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Jeesh even the Highlights of this match were dull.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Couldn't watch it live, finally got a chance this morning. My initial thought was how awful the commentary was. All they kept going on about was why AWJ was a contender for Lions captain because of his 'commitment' and 'pride', you know, those traits that all international players have. The only thing they didn't praise was his play, coz frankly, he was garbarge. He went backwards when he tackled, he went backwards on the rare occasions he carried, his passing was wayward, he lost lineouts. He's like a microcosm of what's wrong with Wales at the moment. Pivac should have blown up Gatland's team, brought in his own players and got them to learn and grow together. Instead, he's kept a lot of Gatland players that don't fit his gameplan and as a result, the team's struggling badly. If he had blown it all up and brought through a lot of newbies, he'd have been given a longer period of grace for results too, but instead the media are already calling for his head. I was never sold on the idea that AWJ was a special player, but he was at least a decent, solid sort, like say Chris Robshaw. These days, he's a total has-been, yet he's still getting caps, not for his play, nor because the team is being successful, but simply coz he fancies another Lions tour and Pivac doesn't want to say no to him. Drop him, for goodness sake, and all the other Gatland favourites. It's not as if they're gonna be around for the next World Cup given their age.

As for England... it feels like they've decided to use this autumn to practice their kicking game. They almost seemed to treat the game as a training run for it. Now if only they'd practice their passing accuracy, which was off again. Even Eddie mentioned that postgame.

Still, the defence has been outstanding (only 2 tries allowed in 4 games, one with 5 minutes left and the game in the bag, the other on a blocked kick (I won't call it a charge down)). I honestly can't remember Wales attacking in our 22, let alone threatening our try line. Despite looking like we're stuck in first gear and needing some definite improvements, we've won 7 in a row, and the last 6 of those were in the bag by 60 minutes. It's a good place to be 3 years out from a World Cup. Normally at this time we're reviewing the first year of a new head coach and a team full of new faces and lamenting the disaster of the last world cup. It's quite refreshing to have a stable, winning team full of quality.

 

[Reiser99]

Wales coach Wayne Pivac to contact World Rugby over referee Romain Poite

Wales head coach Wayne Pivac says he will contact World Rugby about French referee Romain Poite after their defeat by England.

www.bbc.co.uk

While I agree that Wales have some grievances the reality is it wouldn't have affected the outcome of the game. Poite was just bad and both sides suffered at points, though you could possibly argue Wales were more hard done by. It doesn't change the fact that at no point did Wales look like scoring through their own attack. They had no one really getting over the gainline and the only time they looked like getting past England was when they gave it to LRZ in space on the wing. However while he made yards, he was never going to run the length of the pitch and as soon as the ball was recycled it went back to the forwards and centres who then went backwards. Even against Georgia they didn't look great in attack. It was an improvement defensively and the lineout went a bit better, but realistically that was it. I'm sure it's just trying to deflect attention away from the players, but if Wales leave thinking they did well and were just hard done by then I'd be worried about those in charge and the attitude they are sending.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

Allowing a contest at the breakdown has the consequence of meaning that any wide carry of the ball carries risk. Away from the forwards, the ability to clear out the jackler is diminished and hence the dominant pattern of play we now see is kicking as soon as it reaches 10.

It was about the dullest game of rugby I've seen in a fair old while. Reasonably efficiently done by England especially defensively but dull nonetheless

And if we;'re relying on a kick dominated plan can we get a fullback who looks like he might catch them please?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Wales coach Wayne Pivac to contact World Rugby over referee Romain Poite

Wales head coach Wayne Pivac says he will contact World Rugby about French referee Romain Poite after their defeat by England.

www.bbc.co.uk

While I agree that Wales have some grievances the reality is it wouldn't have affected the outcome of the game. Poite was just bad and both sides suffered at points, though you could possibly argue Wales were more hard done by. It doesn't change the fact that at no point did Wales look like scoring through their own attack. They had no one really getting over the gainline and the only time they looked like getting past England was when they gave it to LRZ in space on the wing. However while he made yards, he was never going to run the length of the pitch and as soon as the ball was recycled it went back to the forwards and centres who then went backwards. Even against Georgia they didn't look great in attack. It was an improvement defensively and the lineout went a bit better, but realistically that was it. I'm sure it's just trying to deflect attention away from the players, but if Wales leave thinking they did well and were just hard done by then I'd be worried about those in charge and the attitude they are sending.

That's what the 3rd time Wales have complain to the WR about the ref in the last 8 years? Has anyone else complained that much? Yeah fans complain all the time but I swear no team lodges official ref complaints as much as Wales.

Also interesting stat, the entire Welsh front row (starters and replacements) carried a grand total of 3 times! Kyle Sinckler, who had the lowest number of carries of the starters, carried 6 times. That is ridiculous. Under Pivacs system it seems the front row are there just to tackle and nothing else.

 

[Jimbo]

Allowing a contest at the breakdown has the consequence of meaning that any wide carry of the ball carries risk. Away from the forwards, the ability to clear out the jackler is diminished and hence the dominant pattern of play we now see is kicking as soon as it reaches 10.

It was about the dullest game of rugby I've seen in a fair old while. Reasonably efficiently done by England especially defensively but dull nonetheless

And if we;'re relying on a kick dominated plan can we get a fullback who looks like he might catch them please?

Daly came forward and won it on two or three occasions yesterday, he has been suspect in the past but actually was pretty solid...

 

[ALJ]

I genuinely don't know what Underhill was supposed to do differently when Biggar caught the ball.
I don't argue that it's a penalty but Underhill had stopped complexity and Biggar jumped into his arms - is he supposed to not use his arms? Move out of the way? Something else?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I genuinely don't know what Underhill was supposed to do differently when Biggar caught the ball.
I don't argue that it's a penalty but Underhill had stopped complexity and Biggar jumped into his arms - is he supposed to not use his arms? Move out of the way? Something else?

I thought that, biggar jumps into him. If he moves out the way then that's not right.

I won't have even called it a penalty as as soon as underhill has biggar jumps into him he lets go, he doesn't complete the tackle. You could argue that biggar jumps into the tackle.

 

[Which Tyler]

As ever with these things, IMO the dangerous play is by Biggar for jumping like that into a group of stationary men.
My first callmis to penalise Biggar for dangerous play.
If one of the men in the ground then act dangerously, feel free to penalise them as well, but if they just hold their ground and make the best of a bad situation, then that's all on Biggar.

I know that currently the laws are that Biggar is innocent and Underhill is guilty - but it sucks

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

A key distinction for me was that Underhill didn't change Biggar's direction of motion. He didn't put any kind of hit in at all and ended up moving backwards with him. Maybe by the letter of the law Biggar's tackled in the air, but it's not dangerous at all.