[2019 Six Nations] Ireland vs England (02/02/2019)

[corny]

Appreciate your point of view but would like to hear how you think you stop that game plan if Vunipolas, Manu and the other ball carrying forwards are firing?

This was my point of view before this game and it hasn't changed after. Ireland are still a better team because they consistently perform to a high-level. But the carrying and defensive power of this England team is something we haven't had before - that frankly very few international teams have had before.

I really shouldn't have to qualify my opinion. Mine is fairly bog standard. Yours is outrageous. But here goes.

Ryan, Healy, Furlong, Stander, SOB, Henderson, Aki, POM, Henshaw, probably leaving some out.....are known for being physically powerful. 3 months ago they did to NZ what England to Ireland. They've bested England, SA and NZ* in physical encounters in the past and i'd take that as more compelling evidence than one game where you could question the application of the home team. Its easy, but very short sighted, for you to stand over one very recent game. I'd take a wider view.

*BTW add your biggest rivals France to that list too. Ireland physically best them every time they play them.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I really shouldn't have to qualify my opinion. Mine is fairly bog standard. Yours is outrageous. But here goes.

Ryan, Healy, Furlong, Stander, SOB, Henderson, Aki, POM, Henshaw, probably leaving some out.....are known for being physically powerful. 3 months ago they did to NZ what England to Ireland. They've bested England, SA and NZ* in physical encounters in the past and i'd take that as more compelling evidence than one game where you could question the application of the home team. Its easy, but very short sighted, for you to stand over one very recent game. I'd take a wider view.

*BTW add your biggest rivals France to that list too. Ireland physically best them every time they play them.

But what if Kyle Sinkler takes pre workout before the game?

 

[Leinster Fan]

Yet pre game people said the Ireland side was man for man better than England?

Does seem a little strange that (some) Ireland fans are trying to spin this result as somehow meaning Ireland are better than England.
England need to be perfect for 80 mins to win?
Yet we were a man down for 10 mins, only had one lock for the last 25minutes and really stepped off the gas for like 15mins after halftime, resorting to a gameplan of kicking away all possession and momentum shifted big time

Dunno how you got that from my post. Obviously England don't need to be perfect to win, and you weren't, but given our home record it was going to take a massive performance to win, and you produced that.

Pregame people said that Ireland man for man were mostly better and I'd still say that. The only things I said* there that I'd take back now are that Henshaw was a better bet at fullback than Daly (clearly shown to be wrong) and that Tuilagi and Aki were roughly equal as 12s based off Tuilagi not being great there in the past (also not right, Tuilagi was wwwaaaayyy better). I'm not going to change my opinion on the rest of the players based off one game. I'll admit that England had ball-carrying power that we weren't able to match and that this wasn't widely noticed, but if Furlong, Ryan etc. play to their ability that wouldn't matter as much. As in all things, hindsight is key).

I'd say Ireland are better, but that there's not a huge amount in it and either team could run out comfortable winners against the other (as was shown today where 32-13 would have been a perfectly reasonable scoreline).

*at least I think that's what I said, not bothered to trawl through my posts to find out.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I think far too much emphasis is being put on to ball carrying and gainline dominance here. (probably due to the claims that Billy Vunipola is literally Thanos)

England's game was far more nuanced and intelligent than Ireland's, they went around us for their three game winning tries, it's not as if they were going phase after phase after phase like Exeter do. They won the physical battle for most of the game which got them more opportunities and when Ireland did have the upper hand physically England were very clever in how they disrupted us. Jones done a number on Joe and England's players were in a far better head space than Ireland's too.

England came and beat us well but it's rare we give teams the opportunity to beat us like that, it's usually harder earned. I don't want to see it again this year and there's no reason we should, Joe got a bit cocky, focus wasn't there and England were far too good to get away with that. Time to dust off, get four wins to come second in the champo and build to be better than them if we get another chance to play them this year.

What can't be emphasised enough is how **** losing this was. I'm trying to sleep but when I close my eyes all I see is Henry Slade's stupid, handsome, Englishy face.

 

[corny]

The only things I said* there that I'd take back now are that Henshaw was a better bet at fullback than Daly (clearly shown to be wrong) and that Tuilagi and Aki were roughly equal as 12s based off Tuilagi not being great there in the past (also not right, Tuilagi was wwwaaaayyy better). .

It was interesting how often Aki popped up as first receiver. It was obviously something being worked on but calling it a work in progress would be an understatement. He crabbed across field and invited pressure on the men outside him. Would have been nice to see him carry more off first phase and have a proper battle with Tuiliagi.

I heard Schmidt complaining about the English blocking on the kick chase. They got one over on us in that area for sure. We couldn't get near Daly. I spat the tea out listening to Farrells chat with the ref where he called us out for blocking. The ref was kind to us overall but they pulled the wool over his eyes with that one. We were rather polite to the English chasers!

 

[ThebigARena]

Tbh the intensity between teams does change depending on form and who won last. Before this weekend most people predicted Wales v Ireland to be the critical match that everyone would want to watch. It still might be if Wales beat England and Ireland win the rest of their games, because it might set up another 3 way tie that is decided on bonus points. England were the big scalp after their two 6N's wins, Wales were after theirs and now it's Ireland. However at the moment with the last 5 tournaments being won by Ireland or England, it does imply the rivalry is between those two. What Wales need to do is prove everyone wrong and win the thing. If they show a better performance against Italy they have every chance to do so.

Oh I 100 percent agree with this . I'm sure if France or Scotland had won the last couple of 6 nations that they would of been England's biggest rival . Its just that he said '"always" and that is Rubbish .

 

[Leinster Fan]

I think far too much emphasis is being put on to ball carrying and gainline dominance here. (probably due to the claims that Billy Vunipola is literally Thanos)

England's game was far more nuanced and intelligent than Ireland's, they went around us for their three game winning tries, it's not as if they were going phase after phase after phase like Exeter do. They won the physical battle for most of the game which got them more opportunities and when Ireland did have the upper hand physically England were very clever in how they disrupted us. Jones done a number on Joe and England's players were in a far better head space than Ireland's too.

England came and beat us well but it's rare we give teams the opportunity to beat us like that, it's usually harder earned. I don't want to see it again this year and there's no reason we should, Joe got a bit cocky, focus wasn't there and England were far too good to get away with that. Time to dust off, get four wins to come second in the champo and build to be better than them if we get another chance to play them this year.

What can't be emphasised enough is how **** losing this was. I'm trying to sleep but when I close my eyes all I see is Henry Slade's stupid, handsome, Englishy face.

I think we were outplayed in a number of areas, but the primary one imo was the gainline. England dominated the collisions throughout. 'Dominant tackles' is a silly name but that stat more or less summed up the game for me. We gave them a ridiculous platform.

Obviously they were better in lots of other areas as well, the aerial contest being the main one. But in general England were just better. They clearly came into this absolutely determined to win, while I think we were guilty of taking one eye off the ball* in that respect.

England got their tactics ganeplan much better than is as well.

But overall England deserve a lot of credit for a great performance and a great result.

* Which reminds me, I'm looking forward to Off the Ball explaining this away after their stupidly ridiculous hype this last week.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

'Dominant tackles' is a silly name

You wouldn't say that if Robshaw was Irish. There's a massive difference between number of tackles and decisive interventions. Yesterday we saw the English cause havoc in the tackle, in the past we've been too nice, completing the tackle for sure, but allowing easy recycling.

It's one of the arguments against Ford too. He's gutsy and completes most tackles, but invariably concedes ground. Yesterday we didn't give away easy metres.

Shame our most dominant tackler wasn't playing though.

 

[ncurd]

Shame our most dominant tackler wasn't playing though.

I think we'd need a third category if Underhill was playing...

 

[Dai Yorkshire]

Wow I don't think many saw that coming, well done England,I don't think you'll have too much trouble with France but they are improving if you were playing them over there they would be harder to beat, what will you do against Wales? my crystal ball is a bit cloudy, but in all honesty we've had our bad start, so I don't think we'll be caught that cold again, But Looking forward to it.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

"It's rare we give teams the opportunity"
"We gave them a ridiculous platform"

You didn't give us our tackles, we took them.
You make it sound like Ireland played themselves and England needn't have turned up. We have no impact on the result it's all down to whether Ireland wanted to win or lose

Dunno how you got that from my post. Obviously England don't need to be perfect to win, and you weren't, but given our home record it was going to take a massive performance to win, and you produced that.

Sorry, it was alpha that said that, I was just talking in general not directly at you (despite the quote )

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

"It's rare we give teams the opportunity"
"We gave them a ridiculous platform"

You didn't give us our tackles, we took them.
You make it sound like Ireland played themselves and England needn't have turned up. We have no impact on the result it's all down to whether Ireland wanted to win or lose


Sorry, it was alpha that said that, I was just talking in general not directly at you (despite the quote )

"England's game was far more nuanced and intelligent than Ireland's, they went around us for their three game winning tries, it's not as if they were going phase after phase after phase like Exeter do. They won the physical battle for most of the game which got them more opportunities and when Ireland did have the upper hand physically England were very clever in how they disrupted us. Jones done a number on Joe and England's players were in a far better head space than Ireland's too."

Is what I said before you cherry picked "it's rare we give teams the opportunity" from that post. Do you want me to come out and say Ireland played their best game but there's just nothing we could have done against that England team, like the other fella? Because that's clearly not the case. I've given England plenty of credit.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Lol...I guess at this point we know that the blind loyalty to Ford is immortal.

Look today is not the day for a Ford/Farrell argument obviously! But let's not pretend that one great performance means you can no longer debate selection in future. Any team can be improved

 

[Yoshimitsu]

So the morning after! I've got a bit of a hangover, but that was a great match! I was on record prior to the fixture regarding my fear of what may happen to us. Oh ye of little faith!

That's the best 80 minutes of rugby that England have put together since we (as if I had any influence....) beat the All Blacks in 2012. At that performance level, with those personnel it would take another special team playing specially well to beat us. Could Ireland have played better? Possibly, but the key to England's game was about denying them all the things they've previously hurt us with. The high ball was neutralised effectively, the ruck was cleared violently and quickly, Ireland's big carriers were stopped and often repelled and Sexton was denied any time and space to utilise his skill-set. Stockdale showed that perhaps he can't always score tries from nothing as the pre-match hype would have had us believe.

The main difference for me was simply the intensity of defence and it does represent a change of ethos. For far too long defensive "discipline" appears to have been the primary concern, rather than dominating the contact. Consequently as opposed to watching something like the tide coming in as a well drilled but passive line conceded ground, we were treated to England players hammering their opponents backwards. This isn't a risk free tactic as every now and then someone will miss one. However, what it achieved yesterday allowed all the good things that subsequently happened. Irish players weren't able to get into any effective pattern as often they were being smashed into the turf, hard. The weight of the tackles making ball-retention, ball presentation and offloading all the more difficult. It changes everything. Carriers have to be more worried about ball retention and to a degree self-preservation than thinking about intricate patterns and fancy offloads. Every chance to smash someone was taken. Even the Curry on one Earls was marginal.

I haven't seen as much shaking of heads in the Irish ranks as I witnessed yesterday in a long time. They didn't know what to do. Nothing was working as England just suffocated them. I have a well documented man-crush on POM but for the first time in like ever against England he was as nothing. England had a back row that played as a unit and significantly outplayed their opponents. Similarly CJ Stander who normally gives us a horrible time was rendered totally ineffective. Also Devin Toner (who in my view is to be admired for transforming his capability) showed that despite his work in the line-out perhaps he's not quite there in terms of other things you'd want from a lock. Kruistoje have a nice balance about them and the sight of exocet Lawes joining the fray didn't weaken us. I was concerned when we suddenly had no lock cover, but England adapted well.

Eddie Jones wasn't joking about Nowell either (well not totally). He operated in a free role and was happy in the spaces that the back row normally operate in. What he lacks in pace he does make up for in carrying ability and he's always impressed me with his ability to retain / present ball. Though I was personally very disappointed that we didn't get the chance to see on J May pack down in his comedy scrumming fashion!

Finally, Ireland haven't suddenly become poor. England's game-plan yesterday perfectly blunted their strengths. England had to play at a very high intensity level to achieve that. I suspect just a little bit of complacency (that all great teams can succumb to) was at play on the Irish side. England came straight out of the blocks and got Ireland rattled very early. Once any level of passivity sets in, switching to full intensity is nigh on impossible. Also and I've seen it happen with England before there's a difficult line to be trod between trusting your systems / patterns and deciding to change things when they suddenly aren't working. Ireland didn't change much and thus the result was continued English dominance.

All in all very, very good from all those in a white shirt and a timely reminder to the rugby world about what capabilities we bring. The "slump" as the press decided to call it is well and truly over. If as Eddie says we can and will play better than that then other teams better bring their very best to beat us. That said they just might!

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

According to the BBC 'Ireland have now lost the last 21 games in which they were more than a point behind at half-time.' If that's true it's a bit of a worrying stat and does lend support to the idea that Ireland struggle to chase games. As I said I think Ireland's game plan is about being in control, having a generally solid defence, low penalty count to avoid giving away easy points and striking when there is the opportunity. I can understand the point Hanley makes about an X factor to turn a game on it's head when needed.

I knew they were good frontrunners but that is a fairly insane stat giving the large sample size. That should be brought up in every opponents half time team talk if they are ever in the lead.

 

[Ospervat]

Any news on Itoje injury?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Wonder how long it took Iceman to send the "Thanks for the BP, Dad" text.

 

[Jashay]

Any news on Itoje injury?

Suspected knee (medial) ligament damage, scans today

If that's proper damage, he'll be looking at 4-6 weeks out, I'd imagine.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Wonder how long it took Iceman to send the "Thanks for the BP, Dad" text.

Speaking as a card-carrying "Team Ford" party member, I'm 100% convinced Dad sabotaged the Irish defence on purpose so his little boy could nail down the flyhalf starting spot. Even when he's no longer involved with England the nepotism knows no bounds, it's sickening

 

[Aristodemus]

I think one England fan may be getting a little carried away with his assessment of yesterday. We are both very good teams (I don't think either side can be seen as great until the end of the year) and we are capable of beating each other any time we play. We are both genuine contenders for Bill and that is a great thing to see from the NH if we maintain form and (especially for England given the brutality of the prem and Jones' camps) fitness.

As for the game itself, I think our defence just took Ireland out of their comfort zone. We were hitting them behind the gainline through great line speed and they were big hits too. It took away the front foot ball their game relies on and everything else stemmed from that. Has Mitchell made such a difference? I certainly hope we continue like that!

Just to weigh in on a few points, I'd say Mako, George, Itoje, Binny, Tuilagi & May > Healy, Best, Toner, Stander, Aki & Earls.

I'd say Ireland are still rightfully considered a better team (not by much) than England.

For me the great rival to England (which sort of transcends just union) is Australia, it has declined in our game with the sad decline of the Wallabies over recent years though.