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[2019 Six Nations] Ireland vs England (02/02/2019)

I'm not disagreeing with this, and by no means do I think that we need to go back to the drawing board. But our game plan is quite two dimensional and when our opposition manage to neutralise it (which admittedly doesn't happen often) we can look a bit lost. I'd just like to see us expand our game plan, and come up with some X factor. England played really well today and were going to be tough to beat regardless, but it's important to learn lessons from defeat. Some of our players didn't have their best games today, but man on man I'd still fancy that Ireland team the majority of the time. So the coaching has to take a decent share of the blame here.

We did beat everyone there is to beat over the last 15 months. But we almost lost to France last year when we should have beaten them comfortably. Scotland could have beaten us in Dublin last year if not for some bad wasted chances. We weren't as dominant last year as our win/loss record suggests. Most of those games were tight. Which is a fair reflection of tier one rugby at the moment; I just don't think we can rest on our laurels.

My worry with the current team is that they might not handle adversity well. When things start falling apart they often don't have a response. That's not something that anyone would ever say about the All Blacks for example. Ireland like to smother the opposition by controlling every aspect of the game, but over the course of a World Cup we aren't going to be able to maintain that kind of control. It's just not realistic.
I don't know man, it just seems like a bit of a negative attitude to me, I understand it after earlier but its not my style. X factor has become a bit of a buzzword around this team, we have or we don't depending on the result, Stockdale had it against NZ, we had it in spades in Twickers last year, we didn't today or in Australia, its more about being opportunistic, we just didn't take our chances to make a game of it in the second half, it happens.

Last year four of our 12 games had less than a score in them with the clock in the red, we won all four*, I wouldn't really lament that as us not being dominant, it shows this team knows how to win when given the opportunity. NZ are always praised because they win games that other teams wouldn't and that you have to go for the jugular for 80 minutes to beat them, England did that to us today and Aus did it to us last year and we weren't quite at it either time, it happens from time to time and Schmidt and Ireland do have to make it harder for teams to be able to dominate them but that's about it and I doubt you'll see us dominated like that again this year.

*I think that alone more or less dismisses the adversity point.

This team won't rest on their laurels, they were never going to, there was definitely a lack of focus there today and that'll be addressed but hard work isn't an issue.

What a load of ********. It was errors from your wingers that cost you the first 2 tries, not the full-back, so unless Kearney was going to be playing both left and right wing as well as, presumably, full-back, he wouldn't have stopped either.

Kearney is lauded for his organisational work and positioning from 15, Henshaw was nowhere in sight for the second try and Earls took a gamble for the first that I don't think he would have when more comfortable with Kearney behind him and barking orders. The 1st try is questionable but good fullback play 100% could stop the second, you rarely get much change with grubbers outside the 22 with Kearney around.



England fans are loving this win because it's the first time the team has played to its potential in recent memory, with most of our best players fit - showing how good we can be. Ireland weren't bad through mistakes today, they were bad because England dominated them and there is nothing the players you had on that pitch today could have done to stop that happening.

People (myself included) were calling an England win on here before the game, which means we expected to win - I think your suggestion that it means "so much" is a little delusional - you guys are a very good team, but you don't have the same aura of invincibility that the All Blacks do, it's not even close. They are the only team we expect to lose to and rightly so given the quality and size of our player pool.

Chin up, England will never be able to maintain this consistency for more than a couple of games, so I'm sure you'll take the bragging rights next time!

You =/= We and Expecting a win =/= thinking you could. Most English here were expecting/predicting to lose that game and a lot of the hullabaloo is because you beat a great team in their backyard, I don't think you speak for your country here pal.

I find the inference that there was nothing Ireland could have done to beat England today a little delusional. And the last sentence there is saturated with hubris, it comes across as "Ireland can only beat England if England get it wrong", that's clearly not the case.

Enjoy your win, it was a great one but I think you're overrating England's general prowess here, which is fine, I'm 100% like that with Leinster, but its coupled with being very dismissive of Ireland, which is a bit strange to put it delicately.
 
I think the truth is probably in the middle. On good days for both it should be a tight contest.

Claiming either team has it in them to take the game completely away from the opposition is wide of the mark imo.

Understand your point and it's probably the more pragmatic approach. But as I said before the game on this thread, I genuinely don't think Ireland have the players to stand up to England if Billy, Mako, Sinckler, Manu, Itoje etc are all fit and playing consistently well. Frankly the only team in the 6N that has the physicality to hope to match us is France.

The big if for England is can they do it consistently? So far the answer is no, and the reason why I would say Ireland are still a better team, is that they can play at or close to their potential with excellent consistency. If England were as consistent, they'd be a better team.
 
Enjoy your win, it was a great one but I think you're overrating England's general prowess here, which is fine, I'm 100% like that with Leinster, but its coupled with being very dismissive of Ireland, which is a bit strange to put it delicately.

Wait so you don't think Leinster could beat England? or do you?
 
Wait so you don't think Leinster could beat England? or do you?
Why would you even play that game? Leinster would win by over 100+ points. It'd be a waste of time for all involved. You're lucky we burden ourselves with average players like Connor Murray, Peter O'Mahony and Jacob Stockdale internationally to keep things competitive.
 
Why would you even play that game? Leinster would win by over 100+ points. It'd be a waste of time for all involved. You're lucky we burden ourselves with average players like Connor Murray, Peter O'Mahony and Jacob Stockdale internationally to keep things competitive.
James Lowe makes all his teammates' dicks bigger by an inch, not collectively and not in a sexual way.
 
Understand your point and it's probably the more pragmatic approach. But as I said before the game on this thread, I genuinely don't think Ireland have the players to stand up to England if Billy, Mako, Sinckler, Manu, Itoje etc are all fit and playing consistently well. Frankly the only team in the 6N that has the physicality to hope to match us is France.

The big if for England is can they do it consistently? So far the answer is no, and the reason why I would say Ireland are still a better team, is that they can play at or close to their potential with excellent consistency. If England were as consistent, they'd be a better team.
I'd still disagree, I think with Furlong, Ryan, O'Mahony, SOB, Murray, Sexton, Ringrose and Stockdale at their best at home we'd beat you by more than 7. The reverse would probably be true in England. Fact is our ball carriers underperformed or didn't play today and that contributed in large part to the score. (Although England clearly had the edge in the air and in the breakdown as well).
 
I'd still disagree, I think with Furlong, Ryan, O'Mahony, SOB, Murray, Sexton, Ringrose and Stockdale at their best at home we'd beat you by more than 7. The reverse would probably be true in England. Fact is our ball carriers underperformed or didn't play today and that contributed in large part to the score. (Although England clearly had the edge in the air and in the breakdown as well).

Don't get me wrong, I think Ireland on form are a great team with players capable of matching or besting England in many aspects of the game.

I just can't see how you beat this English team when you literally can't win the gain line against players that powerful. Sure SOB playing 80 makes a difference. But not enough IMO. You can't knock that many guys, that size, backwards for a full game.

If England make mistakes or give away penalties then sure, you could and would win. But what could you have done today to win with that same 23?
 
Don't get me wrong, I think Ireland on form are a great team with players capable of matching or besting England in many aspects of the game.

I just can't see how you beat this English team when you literally can't win the gain line against players that powerful. Sure SOB playing 80 makes a difference. But not enough IMO. You can't knock that many guys, that size, backwards for a full game.

If England make mistakes or give away penalties then sure, you could and would win. But what could you have done today to win with that same 23?

Hyperbolic in the extreme. Enjoy your win.
 
Don't get me wrong, I think Ireland on form are a great team with players capable of matching or besting England in many aspects of the game.

I just can't see how you beat this English team when you literally can't win the gain line against players that powerful. Sure SOB playing 80 makes a difference. But not enough IMO. You can't knock that many guys, that size, backwards for a full game.

If England make mistakes or give away penalties then sure, you could and would win. But what could you have done today to win with that same 23?

I think we do have the players to compete in a gainline battle with England, they just weren't there (SOB, Leavy, Henderson, Henshaw at 12) or not at their best (Healy, Furlong, Stander, Aki).

But definitely not with the 23 we had today. A pack with Best, Toner, Pom, and Vdf was never going to be enough if the Vunipolas and co showed up. But there weren't really alternatives at the same time, Best is captain, our alternatives at lock were injured, and SOB hadn't played enough to justify selection especially given that the flankers we picked were in excellent form.
 
I don't know man, it just seems like a bit of a negative attitude to me, I understand it after earlier but its not my style. X factor has become a bit of a buzzword around this team, we have or we don't depending on the result, Stockdale had it against NZ, we had it in spades in Twickers last year, we didn't today or in Australia, its more about being opportunistic, we just didn't take our chances to make a game of it in the second half, it happens.

Last year four of our 12 games had less than a score in them with the clock in the red, we won all four*, I wouldn't really lament that as us not being dominant, it shows this team knows how to win when given the opportunity. NZ are always praised because they win games that other teams wouldn't and that you have to go for the jugular for 80 minutes to beat them, England did that to us today and Aus did it to us last year and we weren't quite at it either time, it happens from time to time and Schmidt and Ireland do have to make it harder for teams to be able to dominate them but that's about it and I doubt you'll see us dominated like that again this year.

*I think that alone more or less dismisses the adversity point.

This team won't rest on their laurels, they were never going to, there was definitely a lack of focus there today and that'll be addressed but hard work isn't an issue.

It's not coming from a place of negativity, believe me. I don't mean it to come off that way. This is me trying to be positive in seeing what we can get out of this loss. I wasn't crushed by any means when this game was over, I came out of it hopeful that it can help us evolve and get better. The negative approach to a victory like this, in my mind, is to rest on our past wins and say we'll front up better next time. We couldn't cope with England's game plan today. So how can we make our game more adaptive? The coaches should be looking at that now.

If New Zealand are two scores down with 20 minutes left on the clock, you'd almost still back them to win the match on most occasions. It's hard to see a way back for Ireland in a similar situation. That's the kind of adversity I'm talking about. And that's a ridiculously high standard to be aiming for, I know. But I think we have the players and the coaches to get to that kind of space. That's why I see my attitude as positive. Schmidt has accomplished something great by getting the team to #2 in the world, but I think he has the capacity to get us to #1.

Working hard has never been an issue with the team, for sure. They've worked their asses off to the point where they're legitimately the best team in the world in a few areas now. But there are other areas that have been neglected, and I think that's what we need to work on this year. The team needs to become more adaptive, and learn how to play to other game plans if the opposition or the referee prevent us from sticking to ours.
 
But definitely not with the 23 we had today. A pack with Best, Toner, Pom, and Vdf was never going to be enough if the Vunipolas and co showed up.
Yet pre game people said the Ireland side was man for man better than England?

Does seem a little strange that (some) Ireland fans are trying to spin this result as somehow meaning Ireland are better than England.
England need to be perfect for 80 mins to win?
Yet we were a man down for 10 mins, only had one lock for the last 25minutes and really stepped off the gas for like 15mins after halftime, resorting to a gameplan of kicking away all possession and momentum shifted big time
 
Hyperbolic in the extreme. Enjoy your win.

Appreciate your point of view but would like to hear how you think you stop that game plan if Vunipolas, Manu and the other ball carrying forwards are firing?

This was my point of view before this game and it hasn't changed after. Ireland are still a better team because they consistently perform to a high-level. But the carrying and defensive power of this England team is something we haven't had before - that frankly very few international teams have had before.
 
It's not coming from a place of negativity, believe me. I don't mean it to come off that way. This is me trying to be positive in seeing what we can get out of this loss. I wasn't crushed by any means when this game was over, I came out of it hopeful that it can help us evolve and get better. The negative approach to a victory like this, in my mind, is to rest on our past wins and say we'll front up better next time. We couldn't cope with England's game plan today. So how can we make our game more adaptive? The coaches should be looking at that now.

If New Zealand are two scores down with 20 minutes left on the clock, you'd almost still back them to win the match on most occasions. It's hard to see a way back for Ireland in a similar situation. That's the kind of adversity I'm talking about. And that's a ridiculously high standard to be aiming for, I know. But I think we have the players and the coaches to get to that kind of space. That's why I see my attitude as positive. Schmidt has accomplished something great by getting the team to #2 in the world, but I think he has the capacity to get us to #1.

Working hard has never been an issue with the team, for sure. They've worked their asses off to the point where they're legitimately the best team in the world in a few areas now. But there are other areas that have been neglected, and I think that's what we need to work on this year. The team needs to become more adaptive, and learn how to play to other game plans if the opposition or the referee prevent us from sticking to ours.
Yeah I get ya. Coming straight out of the blocks dampening our wins last season threw me a bit, don't think that's necessary (nor do I think it's correct) to convey this.

When we had a front five of Kilcoyne, Cronin, Porter, Roux, Ryan while 9 down a comeback wasn't on. Three of those guys just aren't going to dominate at this level ever and Porter isn't there just yet. A big comeback needs a strong bench to happen, we needed to be in the mix today before the bench came on, the squad isn't that deep, I don't think any squad in the world is.
 
According to the BBC 'Ireland have now lost the last 21 games in which they were more than a point behind at half-time.' If that's true it's a bit of a worrying stat and does lend support to the idea that Ireland struggle to chase games. As I said I think Ireland's game plan is about being in control, having a generally solid defence, low penalty count to avoid giving away easy points and striking when there is the opportunity. I can understand the point Hanley makes about an X factor to turn a game on it's head when needed.
 
Apart from 2005, 2008 and 2012

Tbh the intensity between teams does change depending on form and who won last. Before this weekend most people predicted Wales v Ireland to be the critical match that everyone would want to watch. It still might be if Wales beat England and Ireland win the rest of their games, because it might set up another 3 way tie that is decided on bonus points. England were the big scalp after their two 6N's wins, Wales were after theirs and now it's Ireland. However at the moment with the last 5 tournaments being won by Ireland or England, it does imply the rivalry is between those two. What Wales need to do is prove everyone wrong and win the thing. If they show a better performance against Italy they have every chance to do so.
 

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