[2018 Six Nations] England Squad

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah and I can understand the logic, for me though it feels a lot like Warrenball, in that it worked well at first against teams, but as they figure it out, it becomes less effective and actually a liability.

Completely agree
It can absolutely be effective, and many of our performances show that, But a top side who has done their homework will wreck it

 

[TheSaffycen]

It would still work if the tackling wasn't so passive. A one up runner cutting off the 13 and the guy inside smashing him is a brilliant system, but you have a fly half with a great pass and then you're well and truly screwed. I can only imagine what Barrett would've done against us, his cross field kicking would've resulted in a 40+ score easily

 

[NDC89]

Realistically there won;t be huge change, though Eddie may tinker a little, I don't feel like he will be making too much change mid-tournament. Aside from that, what actually are our backrow options? Alongside depth at 9 that is our real weak point.

All of these are viable options that could be ready for RWC 19 if given a bit of time.

6s: Robshaw, Underhill, Ewers* Haskell**
7s: Underhill, T & B Curry, Simmonds, Clifford
8s: Billy V, Hughes, Simmonds, Clifford

* Very unlikely given Eddie hasn't looked at him at all really, but hey I wouldn't mind seeing him given a go.
**Given a simple remit and if he is in form he wouldn't be the worst thing if we had a run of injuries.

Given no injuries I'd be excited to see:

6. Underhill
7. Simmonds
8. Billy V

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Also are kit is meh.

Why can't we have this kit damn it

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

My thoughts on what changes are needed in the team. Clearly it's the breakdown where we're really struggling and the thing is that it shouldn't actually be too difficult to fix, it's just a case of us being able to clear out and secure our own rucks. With that in mind:

• Williams for Cole is a necessity IMO. At this point Cole is 100% a passenger. Williams' ruck clear outs are superb so this would help out the pack massively. Ok, maybe we'll lose something at scrum time, but if it means we're able to secure our own ruck ball then it's worth it. And it's also not like Williams is incapable at scrum time, he's just not quite Cole. Also adds a lot more go forward than Cole.
• Lawes either into lock or onto the bench. I'd bench him, he has a fantastic work rate but doesn't offer that much in the rucks. I think giving him the finisher label may lead him to make more of an impact in defence. Itoje's not having the best Championship but I think he'll pull through. Launch is absolutely our best lock; such an underrated ball carrier.
• Underhill in to start. As soon as he came on the ruck's became noticeably better. Although I don't think he's a natural 7 he's a hell of a lot more of a 7 than Robshaw. Robshaw back to 6.

For now in the backs wouldn't make any changes to the starters. I agree that Care isn't a starter but Robson or Vellacott realistically won't be able to be brought up to speed in time for France. would bring one of them in on the bench for Wigs but not to start. Personally think that calls to break up the Ford-Farrell axis are frankly a bit ridiculous. They've been great in the games leading up to this. Ok they were poor yesterday behind a bad pack but that doesn't mean we should bin them, it means we need to sort out the bad pack. Thought it was interesting to see that Nowell was top of the "Key Influencer" thing that the Inside Line make. I think someone like him is needed in grudge matches like yesterdays to provide some go forward in the backs but I still wouldn't start him as May and Watson are such good finishers on the wings. It's just a case of bringing him on earlier once it's been recognised that he's needed. Similar for Te'o, we need his go forward in some games but don't start him, just bring him on when needed, and as a 13 as well. Farrell-Te'o-Joseph doesn't work. As for Brown, he had a bit of a shocker yesterday but I'd keep him around. As Eddie said after the Wales game, he's usually superb for us in terms of reliability. Yesterday was unfortunately a bad game for him but credit has to be given to the Scottish kicking game which was pretty excellent.

As for when all players are fit I'd bring Daly straight in for May. Unfortunate for May who has been good, but Daly just offers more. Due to us always seemingly always having at least one winger injured it's also not like May's not going to get game time. I'd also bring Simmonds in on the flank for Robshaw, I know people tend to disagree with me on this but I can't help feeling that he's a passenger that's managed to acquire the workhorse label. He doesn't actually make that many tackles and has no impact going forward or at the breakdown. Marler also offered nothing when he came on; I'd bring in Genge for him.

For France:
1. Vunipola
2. Hartley
3. Williams
4. Launchbury
5. Itoje
6. Robshaw
7. Underhill
8. Hughes
9. Care
10. Ford
11. May
12. Farrell
13. Joseph
14. Watson
15. Brown

16. George
17. Marler
18. Sinckler
19. Lawes
20. Mercer?
21. Vellacott/Robson
22. Te'o
23. Nowell

All fit:
1. Vunipola
2. Hartley
3. Williams
4. Launchbury
5. Itoje
6. Underhill
7. Simmonds
8. Vunipola
9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. Daly
12. Farrell
13. Joseph
14. Watson
15. Brown

16. George
17. Genge
18. Sinckler
19. Lawes
20. Hughes
21. Care
22. Te'o
23. Nowell

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

England won't move forward IMO with Brown and Hartley blocking more dynamic and better players IMO
George starting and Cowan-Dickie on the bench suddenly adds so much more options in our pack, The hooker is basically now a 3rd flanker as McInally showed and Eddie has been behind on this.
Same with Brown, having Watson in at 15 and being able to hit lines he when spots them in the back play would again give us more options down the middle. currently we are just shipping side to side and it's all predictable.

But Eddie has set his stall out on them.

(Would also be tempted to try and look at Trinder at 13 this year.

 

[NDC89]

Are people watching a different May than me? He does nothing for me. Watson is a lethal finisher at least, but at international level May doesn't seem to have done that much for me. He was a complete passenger yesterday. Nowell must have touched the ball more than him in 10 mins.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Are people watching a different May than me? He does nothing for me. Watson is a lethal finisher at least, but at international level May doesn't seem to have done that much for me. He was a complete passenger yesterday. Nowell must have touched the ball more than him in 10 mins.

He did about as much yesterday as Watson. (Who along with brown fecked up for that jones try.

Wingers can't do much if they don't get the ball, when May actually got the ball he was one of the few people that made yards in the tackle.

Trouble was as half the time the ball went to his wing he had to protect the ruck becuase our forwards decided it was too far so better just watch it.

May ran for 68m yesterday twice as much as any other back for us. And he is just as much a finisher as Watson.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

This is a great article on selection actually, worth a read https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1556600331121663&id=1213226295459070

 

[Bada-Bing!]

So 18 months to go to the RWC and England still really haven't sorted out their backrow, midfield and back 3. Breakdown still a mess.

 

[NDC89]

He did about as much yesterday as Watson. (Who along with brown fecked up for that jones try.

Wingers can't do much if they don't get the ball, when May actually got the ball he was one of the few people that made yards in the tackle.

Trouble was as half the time the ball went to his wing he had to protect the ruck becuase our forwards decided it was too far so better just watch it.

May ran for 68m yesterday twice as much as any other back for us. And he is just as much a finisher as Watson.

Hard to argue with a lot of that, the backline got poor ball off the pack yesterday. However, given half a sniff I;d back Watson to finish off a try far more than May. I just don't rate him really. Guess it is personal preference, but he doesn't look up to the job at this level for me.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

So 18 months to go to the RWC and England still really haven't sorted out their backrow, midfield and back 3. Breakdown still a mess.

You forgot the front row.

As I've said before, I don't think there's one single unit in the team nailed on for the RWC. That's not a good place to be for a team with aspirations of winning it.

Normally I'd back experience for a RWC. But this time it just doesn't feel that Hartley, Cole, Robshaw and Brown in particular will cut it. Eddie's backed himself into this corner, let's see how he gets out of it.

The Torygraph had a good take, angling it that we've lost 2 of our last 4 6N games. Hadn't really thought about it that way. If we lose one of the remaining two, which is quite possible, that's 3 out of 6 and Eddie suddenly doesn't quite seem the all conquering alchemist.

Interesting times ahead.

 

[Chief Pete]

My thoughts on what changes are needed in the team. Clearly it's the breakdown where we're really struggling and the thing is that it shouldn't actually be too difficult to fix, it's just a case of us being able to clear out and secure our own rucks. With that in mind:

• Williams for Cole is a necessity IMO. At this point Cole is 100% a passenger. Williams' ruck clear outs are superb so this would help out the pack massively. Ok, maybe we'll lose something at scrum time, but if it means we're able to secure our own ruck ball then it's worth it. And it's also not like Williams is incapable at scrum time, he's just not quite Cole. Also adds a lot more go forward than Cole.
• Lawes either into lock or onto the bench. I'd bench him, he has a fantastic work rate but doesn't offer that much in the rucks. I think giving him the finisher label may lead him to make more of an impact in defence. Itoje's not having the best Championship but I think he'll pull through. Launch is absolutely our best lock; such an underrated ball carrier.
• Underhill in to start. As soon as he came on the ruck's became noticeably better. Although I don't think he's a natural 7 he's a hell of a lot more of a 7 than Robshaw. Robshaw back to 6.

For now in the backs wouldn't make any changes to the starters. I agree that Care isn't a starter but Robson or Vellacott realistically won't be able to be brought up to speed in time for France. would bring one of them in on the bench for Wigs but not to start. Personally think that calls to break up the Ford-Farrell axis are frankly a bit ridiculous. They've been great in the games leading up to this. Ok they were poor yesterday behind a bad pack but that doesn't mean we should bin them, it means we need to sort out the bad pack. Thought it was interesting to see that Nowell was top of the "Key Influencer" thing that the Inside Line make. I think someone like him is needed in grudge matches like yesterdays to provide some go forward in the backs but I still wouldn't start him as May and Watson are such good finishers on the wings. It's just a case of bringing him on earlier once it's been recognised that he's needed. Similar for Te'o, we need his go forward in some games but don't start him, just bring him on when needed, and as a 13 as well. Farrell-Te'o-Joseph doesn't work. As for Brown, he had a bit of a shocker yesterday but I'd keep him around. As Eddie said after the Wales game, he's usually superb for us in terms of reliability. Yesterday was unfortunately a bad game for him but credit has to be given to the Scottish kicking game which was pretty excellent.

As for when all players are fit I'd bring Daly straight in for May. Unfortunate for May who has been good, but Daly just offers more. Due to us always seemingly always having at least one winger injured it's also not like May's not going to get game time. I'd also bring Simmonds in on the flank for Robshaw, I know people tend to disagree with me on this but I can't help feeling that he's a passenger that's managed to acquire the workhorse label. He doesn't actually make that many tackles and has no impact going forward or at the breakdown. Marler also offered nothing when he came on; I'd bring in Genge for him.

For France:
1. Vunipola
2. Hartley
3. Williams
4. Launchbury
5. Itoje
6. Robshaw
7. Underhill
8. Hughes
9. Care
10. Ford
11. May
12. Farrell
13. Joseph
14. Watson
15. Brown

16. George
17. Marler
18. Sinckler
19. Lawes
20. Mercer?
21. Vellacott/Robson
22. Te'o
23. Nowell

All fit:
1. Vunipola
2. Hartley
3. Williams
4. Launchbury
5. Itoje
6. Underhill
7. Simmonds
8. Vunipola
9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. Daly
12. Farrell
13. Joseph
14. Watson
15. Brown

16. George
17. Genge
18. Sinckler
19. Lawes
20. Hughes
21. Care
22. Te'o
23. Nowell

Personally think LCD should be ahead of Hartley now with George starting and LCD off the bench, agree with your Robshaw 'workhorse' comment Underhill at 6 and Simmonds at 7 offers the graft and a lot more...

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Personally think LCD should be ahead of Hartley now with George starting and LCD off the bench, agree with your Robshaw 'workhorse' comment Underhill at 6 and Simmonds at 7 offers the graft and a lot more...

How is LCD's lineout throwing coming along? It was still pretty woeful a couple of years ago and a liability at international level.

Problem we have right now is no real option at 6 giving us real breakdown and also an alternative lineout option if Simmonds to 6 and Underhill at 7. That's if Lawes and Maro are no longer considered options at 6 because let's face it they are both more comfortable playing at lock. At least Robshaw can be an option there. We may end up more limited than the Wallaby backdown at the last RWC - Fardy, Hooper and Pocock. But at least they were more breakdown orientated.

 

[FLOBALOB]

Are people watching a different May than me? He does nothing for me. Watson is a lethal finisher at least, but at international level May doesn't seem to have done that much for me. He was a complete passenger yesterday. Nowell must have touched the ball more than him in 10 mins.

I'm watching the same May as you. Him and Nowell are complete opposites . Nowell being a complete all round natural rugby player and May having virtually no, or limited, natural ability, just his pace. Might be a harsh ,but i know which one id rather have.
He will be replaced by Daly when hes back.
I'd like to add that the more i see of Watson the less sure i am about him. Sure,he looks top notch when he makes his quick darting runs and finishes, but he does have serious defensive flaws in tackling and under high balls.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I'm watching the same May as you. Him and Nowell are complete opposites . Nowell being a complete all round natural rugby player and May having virtually no, or limited, natural ability, just his pace. Might be a harsh ,but i know which one id rather have.
He will be replaced by Daly when hes back.
I'd like to add that the more i see of Watson the less sure i am about him. Sure,he looks top notch when he makes his quick darting runs and finishes, but he does have serious defensive flaws in tackling and under high balls.

Don't think we really have anyone who's particularly good under the high ball....

Agree with most of that though. I'm not a massive fan of May, and find it hard to leave Nowell out of the starting XV.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

You forgot the front row.

As I've said before, I don't think there's one single unit in the team nailed on for the RWC. That's not a good place to be for a team with aspirations of winning it.

Normally I'd back experience for a RWC. But this time it just doesn't feel that Hartley, Cole, Robshaw and Brown in particular will cut it. Eddie's backed himself into this corner, let's see how he gets out of it.

The Torygraph had a good take, angling it that we've lost 2 of our last 4 6N games. Hadn't really thought about it that way. If we lose one of the remaining two, which is quite possible, that's 3 out of 6 and Eddie suddenly doesn't quite seem the all conquering alchemist.

Interesting times ahead.

Yes and no; at lock although we haven't got our 2 starters "nailed on" we have no issues there; Itoje, Launchbury, Lawes and Kruis are more or less interchangeable at this point and whichever pairing we put out will be at least the 2nd best lock pairing in the world. With Isiekwe and Ewels also seemingly comfortable at international level we have no worries at lock.

I'd also have thought that as a unit, Youngs and Ford are bolted on as the halfbacks. The last couple of games have shown that without Youngs our game management and kicking game crumbles. Farrell's also a far better 12 than 10, where he really seems to struggle pulling strings at international level while the likes of Marcus Smith is still too green IMO. Ford has his off days but he is a quality 10; I wouldn't want to see him dropped.

The back three's similar to lock IMO in that between May, Watson, Nowell, Daly and Brown we're not exactly weak there, we just don't necessarily know what our best selection of the 5 is. Granted in the future it'd be good to bring in some power in the form of Earle, or my preference, Cokonasiga, but for now we're sorted.

The front row's an interesting one in that I believe we have the players to have no worries there; Eddie just refuses to select them. At loosehead we're fine; between Vunipola, Genge and Marler we have 3 options that have proven to be comfortable at international level. The issues come at hooker and tighthead where although we have top class players in George and LCD at hooker and Williams and Sinckler at THP, EJ refuses to start them. In some ways EJ does seem intent on hamstringing the team by always going for experience and reliability over dynamism and form. He really needs to put some faith in some of the less experienced players and push the boat out. If we want to be the best team in the world we need to be unafraid to find out who our best players are. Look at New Zealand for (the obvious) example: Jordie Barrett gets his first Super Rugby contract and a season later he's got 2 international caps, one of which being a start vs the Lions, Asafo Aumua never even played Super Rugby but shows great form at U20s and for his province and gets taken on the end of year tour, playing 2 (uncapped) games for the ABs, and now both look likely to play a part in 2019. Why won't EJ do that? For a coach who is obsessed with winning that RWC, he refuses to accept that sometimes it's worth taking a loss to try out some new players.

 

[ncurd]

I struggle to keep Brown in he's had a few good performances in the past year but I think he's had more games like last night than those like Wales.

Robshaw at 6 makes sense he's tried, tested and does a job to a level.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

How is LCD's lineout throwing coming along? It was still pretty woeful a couple of years ago and a liability at international level.

Problem we have right now is no real option at 6 giving us real breakdown and also an alternative lineout option if Simmonds to 6 and Underhill at 7. That's if Lawes and Maro are no longer considered options at 6 because let's face it they are both more comfortable playing at lock. At least Robshaw can be an option there. We may end up more limited than the Wallaby backdown at the last RWC - Fardy, Hooper and Pocock. But at least they were more breakdown orientated.

It's good for Chiefs; not sure of any percentages but it's not a weakness. That said, back when he got those few England games and his lineout throwing was pretty woeful there wasn't actually any huge issue with it for the Chiefs then either. The problem with him didn't seem to be a lack of lineout throwing ability per se but that he couldn't handle the pressure of the step up. We won't know if he's sorted that out until he's given another opportunity at this level.

 

[FLOBALOB]

It's good for Chiefs; not sure of any percentages but it's not a weakness. That said, back when he got those few England games and his lineout throwing was pretty woeful there wasn't actually any huge issue with it for the Chiefs then either. The problem with him didn't seem to be a lack of lineout throwing ability per se but that he couldn't handle the pressure of the step up. We won't know if he's sorted that out until he's given another opportunity at this level.

Agree with that, everyone saw a few loose throws in his England debut and have used it as something to beat him with ever since. Like you say ,it was nerves.
His throwing this year has been spot on ,probably best in the AP. It was 20/20 yesterday.Had a great all round game again yesterday, and for me, best hooker in the league.