[2018 November Tests] Ireland vs USA (24/11/18)

[Leinster Fan]

What's really impressive about Byrne is that his game improves every showing. For example his passing has gotten noticeably better over the last few weeks (from what was already a high baseline). He's taking the ball a lot closer to the line as well which is great

 

[bushytop]

What's really impressive about Byrne is that his game improves every showing. For example his passing has gotten noticeably better over the last few weeks (from what was already a high baseline). He's taking the ball a lot closer to the line as well which is great

I've been impressed by him all season in the Pro14... slightly surprised that all the talk had been 'so' Carbey up until now. Very good player and a great back up 10 for club and country.

 

[munstermuffin]

I was basing it on his rather rudderless showing while at 10.

Byrne seemed to get much more out of the others around him - while Joey seems a bit more likely to create a gap for himself. JC has the higher plateau if he can learn from it. But Byrne is the better option right now. The clock is ticking.

I 100% agree. Joey is better sub option as he is improving the tactical side constantly and will always offer an attacking threat. Like Sean Cronin he offers alot more in last 20 etc if needed and is versatile. But I have always said it. Byrne is a top 10. If Sexton is injured he should be the starter as he is the better "bread and butter" 10 of passing and picking his kicks.
But key part is both are playing regularly as 10s

 

[profitius]

USA were knackered in the 2nd half. Bit unfair to judge subs agaibst starters when it was a completely different scenario between the first and second half.


Byrne might not even be Leinster's 2nd choice 10 next season after Frawley display against Ospreys.

 

[Leinster Fan]

USA were knackered in the 2nd half. Bit unfair to judge subs agaibst starters when it was a completely different scenario between the first and second half.


Byrne might not even be Leinster's 2nd choice 10 next season after Frawley display against Ospreys.

Byrne was on after 25 minutes when there were 3 points in it. Hardly the same as coming on against a team that's already given up. Our attack was much more incisive after he came on (still prefer Carbery though)

You're right about Frawley though, won't get past Byrne as a starter any time soon but with his versatility could theoretically get him ahead in the 22 shirt.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I wouldn't be hyping Frawley up that much just yet. Yesterday was closer to A level than your average pro14 fixture.

 

[Leinster Fan]

I wouldn't be hyping Frawley up that much just yet. Yesterday was closer to A level than your average pro14 fixture.

Yeah, it's important that we remember that he only has five appearances for Leinster, and only one was against opposition that could be considered in any way decent. Still, he's earned his chance to play against teams that won't surrender as easily and his versatility means he'll see plenty of chances especially given that we (Leinster) are hardly overflowing with 10s 12s and 15s.

 

[Leinster Fan]

Kilcoyne could have done better, he wasn't poor but missed a chance and then butchered a 3 on 1 overlap late on. He needed to show more to put any realistic pressure on McGrath. Scannell I'd say was the same, to force himself into the 23 he needed to blow the doors off and he didn't. Bealham wasn't great, especially in the loose, and the scrum got much better when Ryan came on. Ryan would be the big winner in the front row and he's established himself properly as third choice.

Mixed bag from Beirne and Henderson, there were problems in the lineout and they have to take responsibility for our inability to defend mauls. They won't go further back than third and fourth choice in the pecking order though so it doesn't really matter.

Ruddock and Jordi were good enough to keep them in the conversation for making the 23. Without being bad, Jack Conan missed his chance to a certain extent and might have picked up an injury which is worrying from a Leinster perspective but then againit'd be really exciting to see Doris or Deegan lining up in the Heineken Cup.

Cooney wasn't good enough to move himself further up, his kicking could have been better. Joey didn't really get a chance at 10, Ross Byrne was very good though. Sweetnam was unlucky and it'll be a long time before his next chance comes round. McCloskey was poor, Ringrose was the best player on the pitch by a huge margin. Looked like a guy playing above his age grade or something. Conway was brilliant, always looked dangerous and got his hattrick, there's not an awful lot between him, Addison (who was also very good) and Larmour so it'll be interesting to see.

Ryan and Byrne were the winners off the bench, no one else was noticeable for better or worse.

 

[CraigWarrior]

Credit to the US for carrying on. The gulf between the sides is huuuuuge, Obviously. A few of the lesser Countries seem to compete for the ist half and then the score blows away. Shows the future for Ireland is very promising. Just needs Joe to stay put. Unless he leaves them as World Cup Champions. Then he might as well go.

 

[munstermuffin]

Key parts for RWC.
Backrow. 5 from all options will go.
Stander POM and VDF nailed on. 2 from Leavy, Conan, SOB and Ruddock to make it.

Back 3. 5 will go. RK, Earls and Stockdale certain. 2 from Larmour, Conway, Addison and others seem to be the way. May be only 4 with Carbery and an extra centre.

6 props will go. Kilcoyne, Ryan and 4 Leinster lads.

 

[corny]

Its hard to question Schmidts judgement and seem credible but i can't understand why Luke McGrath and Ross Byrne aren't clear second choice half backs.

McGraths pass is slicker and he's a better box kicker than Cooney and Marmion. In fact he's a lot better than Cooney.

Carberry is a talented lad but an average 10. All the stuff about gametime improving him is wishful thinking. Makes sense on paper but it won't amount to anytihng. He rarely brings people into the game and 99% of his passes are him just shipping the ball to the nearest player. Joe's vote of confidence seems to be the deciding factor when the conversation about who is better pops up but i believe the Leinster staff and my eyes.....Byrne>Carberry.

 

[Leinster Fan]

Its hard to question Schmidts judgement and seem credible but i can't understand why Luke McGrath and Ross Byrne aren't clear second choice half backs.

McGraths pass is slicker and he's a better box kicker than Cooney and Marmion. In fact he's a lot better than Cooney.

Carberry is a talented lad but an average 10. All the stuff about gametime improving him is wishful thinking. Makes sense on paper but it won't amount to anytihng. He rarely brings people into the game and 99% of his passes are him just shipping the ball to the nearest player. Joe's vote of confidence seems to be the deciding factor when the conversation about who is better pops up but i believe the Leinster staff and my eyes.....Byrne>Carberry.

To be honest I agree with you, don't know why Joey hasn't been considered at 15 for Ireland even off the bench, I'd say he's probably better than our other options there bar Kearney. At this moment in time Byrne is the better 10 though.

Marmion was generally good in November but to be honest I've never seen what he's done to deserve selection, I thought Cooney was better when they were at Connacht and he doesn't stand out in a Connacht backline where nobody except Aki is anywhere near the Ireland squad. Blade has looked good every time I've seen him this season and it wouldn't surprise me to see him take the Connacht 9 shirt off Marmion sooner rather than later. The points in his favour are that he's coped well against Tier 1 teams but so has McGrath who plays at the top level of European rugby on a regular basis as well.

Marmion and Carbery would be great impact subs but the reality is that we don't sub our halfbacks off unless the game is over, the roles of the Irish no. 21 and 22 are injury cover right now and for that you'd presumably be looking for a player who can steady the ship and keep calm off the bench, don't know how Marmion and Carbery could be considered better options for that. I do get that if there's an injury crisis in the backs you're better off with Carbery because he plays in the back three as well and could probably make a decent attempt at centre if you asked him to but beyond that I'd definitely have Byrne out in front as a starter, something I've only been convinced of this season and I wasn't sure last year that Cullen and co were getting it right.

Despite all this, I've accepted that Joe knows more about these things that I do and that even if some of his selections baffle me they usually turn out to be right long-term. It's also worth noting that Carbery was playing really well for Munster earlier this season at 10 and has the potential to be ridiculously good in that position. Byrne is the better player right now but I can see why Carbery is worth persevering with.

 

[profitius]

Byrne was on after 25 minutes when there were 3 points in it. Hardly the same as coming on against a team that's already given up. Our attack was much more incisive after he came on (still prefer Carbery though)

You're right about Frawley though, won't get past Byrne as a starter any time soon but with his versatility could theoretically get him ahead in the 22 shirt.

I watched it back again on YouTube to make sure I wasn't hallucinating.


I think there's a bit of reverse snobbery here from a few posters. Carbery was typical Carbery and ran the game smoothly. There might have only been 3 points in it at that stage but the USA had a lot of possession and yet Ireland were making line breaks and scored 2 tries. Carbery converting both, one from the sideline. Heaslip mentioned after about 32 minutes that the USA were looking tired.


Byrne didn't do much wrong and put in a peach of a kick for the try. So I'm not knocking Byrne but I think Carbery gets judged harshly and some people think he's not a 10 because he has too much flare. He was superb against Exeter in windy conditions. He actually controlled the game better than Gareth Steenson who is an excellent 'bread and butter' 10.

 

[munstermuffin]

Its hard to question Schmidts judgement and seem credible but i can't understand why Luke McGrath and Ross Byrne aren't clear second choice half backs.

McGraths pass is slicker and he's a better box kicker than Cooney and Marmion. In fact he's a lot better than Cooney.

Carberry is a talented lad but an average 10. All the stuff about gametime improving him is wishful thinking. Makes sense on paper but it won't amount to anytihng. He rarely brings people into the game and 99% of his passes are him just shipping the ball to the nearest player. Joe's vote of confidence seems to be the deciding factor when the conversation about who is better pops up but i believe the Leinster staff and my eyes.....Byrne>Carberry.

Whatever about Joey. The 9 issue I though Marmion pulled clear as 2nd choice 9. Was superb in autumn and deserving of his 2nd choice status.
On the 10 debate. Joey is improving every day and is now a starter and leader in the big games. Byrne and Joey are 2 different players. Joey is better sub for impact and versatility. However if Sexton was out Byrbe may be the bettwr choice to start but equally its hard to judge as it's not like for like

 

[Leinster Fan]

I watched it back again on YouTube to make sure I wasn't hallucinating.


I think there's a bit of reverse snobbery here from a few posters. Carbery was typical Carbery and ran the game smoothly. There might have only been 3 points in it at that stage but the USA had a lot of possession and yet Ireland were making line breaks and scored 2 tries. Carbery converting both, one from the sideline. Heaslip mentioned after about 32 minutes that the USA were looking tired.


Byrne didn't do much wrong and put in a peach of a kick for the try. So I'm not knocking Byrne but I think Carbery gets judged harshly and some people think he's not a 10 because he has too much flare. He was superb against Exeter in windy conditions. He actually controlled the game better than Gareth Steenson who is an excellent 'bread and butter' 10.

Don't get me wrong, I really really rate Carbery and I'm always excited to watch him play (even for Munster), but in terms of short-term backup to Sexton I think we're looking for a player who can come in and to a similar job and I think Byrne is more that. I also think we'd to well to look at bringing him on at 15 during games, he'd provide a great attacking outlet and would be a really dangerous player to bring on with 20 minutes to go and we're never going to bring Sexton off at that point.

His time with Munster has already benefited him hugely and if he stays injury free and keeps developing he'll be some weapon for the RWC and even more so going beyond that but for now I'd have him and Byrne roughly equal.

 

[munstermuffin]

Don't get me wrong, I really really rate Carbery and I'm always excited to watch him play (even for Munster), but in terms of short-term backup to Sexton I think we're looking for a player who can come in and to a similar job and I think Byrne is more that. I also think we'd to well to look at bringing him on at 15 during games, he'd provide a great attacking outlet and would be a really dangerous player to bring on with 20 minutes to go and we're never going to bring Sexton off at that point.

His time with Munster has already benefited him hugely and if he stays injury free and keeps developing he'll be some weapon for the RWC and even more so going beyond that but for now I'd have him and Byrne roughly equal.

As you've pointed out it is a case of styles. If you want a starter close to Sexton then Byrne is closer. But as you say Joey offers alot more and difference in style. Byrne and Joey are probably on par as 10s. Carbery is the much better bench option as he plays in a more exciting style which is perfect if we need to be chasing a game. And he is versatile.
Both are well capable of being top 10s. And unlike last World Cup I feel we do hace depth more than capable of filling in for Sexton if he were to get injured. Yes it'd weaken us but like any worldclass player that would weaken team regardless.
Key bit now thpugh is both are playing regularly regularly as 10s.
Joey has came on so much as a 10 I feel since moving to us as he has the confidence and all of being a starter.
Ross is the better 10 for tactical kicking and basics that I feel is vital hence why I'd start Byrne if Sexton were out