[2018 November Tests] England vs New Zealand 10/11/18

[User1245]

Nothing to interpret for the disallowed try, he was clearly offside. Not sure how it's even debatable?

 

[kesh]

Not going to be happy come World Cup having Jamie George throwing in a high pressure knock out game situation. Which is our group games tbh with France and a Argentina +Isa etc. It's not the first time he's completely **** the bed when England really didn't need it (can't remember the match exactly— just remember seething quite alot at Jamie George in particular).

Hopefully Hartley being subbed at halftime indicates he will now be a Finisher. Yeah, for all his flopping around in open play i'd be much happier seeing his face coming on in a pressure cooker game throwing lineouts and scrummaging than George.

 

[Carlito]

I thought they spent most of the game offside at the ruck and breakdown, and it was barely policed at all. You only have to look at who is coaching them to understand where that comes from. The Wallabies of the early 2000s made a tactic of being offside. When it was finally (and correctly) policed in the 75th minute of this game, it came as a bit of a controversial "gotcha" moment.

However, to be fair, the All Blacks weren't actually compliant angels at the breakdown either, both with offside and with slowing the the ball down - sometimes legally, but sometimes not.

As to "that" offside call, its important to remember the Law as regards to when the ball is out of the ruck'

LAW 15: RUCK
ENDING A RUCK
17. When the ball has been clearly won by a team at the ruck, and is available to be played,
the referee calls "use it", after which the ball must be played away from the ruck within
five seconds. Sanction: Scrum.
18. The ruck ends and play continues when the ball leaves the ruck or when the ball in the
ruck is on or over the goal line.​

Despite what you might hear from Justin Marshall (who does not know the Laws as well as he thinks he does), the ball is not out of the ruck (and therefore, the ruck has not ended) when the scrum half puts his hands on the ball. The ruck ends when the ball is lifted. Lawes was clearly at least a half-metre offside when the ruck ended, and that means he needed stop where he was until the ball was kicked or the scrum half ran 5m.

LAW 10 OFFSIDE
RETIRING FROM A RUCK, MAUL, SCRUM OR LINEOUT
8. A player who is offside at a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout remains offside, even after the
ruck, maul, scrum or lineout has ended.
9. The player can be put onside only if:
a. That player immediately retires behind the applicable offside line; or
b. An opposition player carries the ball five metres in any direction; or
c. An opposition player kicks the ball.​

It was that half-metre advantage (illegally gained) that allowed him to charge the ball down and that directly resulted in the try being scored.

The Offside Law is one of the easiest Laws in rugby to comply with, just stay in an onside position and you can't be pinged for it. There is only one person responsible for the disallowng of that try.... Lawes himself.

Just reading how Kaplan disagrees with that argument...have you got a counter to Kaplan's argument..?
Kaplan says...
"'However, the crux of the matter is whether the ball is out or not. If you watch the footage again you will see scrumhalf TJ Perenara had his hands on the ball for some time before lifting it. That is crucial. To my mind, if the ball is no longer in the ruck and is not covered at all by other players – something I assessed by asking myself whether a bird could s**t on it from above – then it is out and available for all to play.

'Further illustrating the point, by touching it Perenara ensured it was fair game for anyone else to make a move, not least Lawes. The offside line is not relevant now, which to my mind makes this a fair try."'
https://www.sarugbymag.co.za/kaplan-tmo-wrong-disallow-england-try/

 

[All Black]

Regardless of whether Lawes was offside or not, the AB player crawling out of the scrum, grabbing Care and taking him to ground when he was waiting for the AB 9 to get the ball out was ridiculously blatant. The ABs then lying on the wrong side twice and being a mile offside in at least one of the plays after, it was just a stream of penalty offenses at the end of the game that all went unpunished. Saying Lawes was offside was passable but turning a blind eye to everything the ABs did after was inexcusable. It wasn't just one extra incident but multiple ones.

To be totally honest, and I'm not just saying this as a 'get back' to your post, but I was seeing the same thing you were. Only it was England that was getting away with forward passes, not straight line outs, knock ons etc...

I saw some of what you're saying so in no way am I having a dig at you. Had we lost, I honestly wouldn't have said much about Garces. Its only those refs that clearly keep giving one side all the calls, even the 50/50 scrum ones that really annoy me.

I dont care how much english posters on here diss their own team or rate Ireland highly over their team I still think England is a champion side. And I know that like I know Lawes was offside

 

[Nubiwan]

Nothing to interpret for the disallowed try, he was clearly offside. Not sure how it's even debatable?

What's irritating is the amount of time people spend offside at ruck time, and are not penalized throughout an entire rugby match. I am betting I could capture at least 10 instances from every test match where defenders are not behind the last foot in a ruck. There was much fuss made of it in the last lions tour, which i was at pains to point out there too. Players spend their time being offside at rucks. If there is a try, then it somehow needs review. At best today, England were unlucky it was called back. It was marginal.

Point is, if we replayed every offside at ruck, England would have the slow, break down to break down game they really try to impose on the ABs.

The irony today, was the commentator commenting on how the refs would have more influence over the TMO decisions, yet plainly, Garces wanted someone else to decide. He was having none of it. Nice solid spine there.....

 

[Nubiwan]

My 2 bits on what transpired.

When I saw the conditions I thought, well, that should help England, as the game will necessarily have to be a lot tighter, more tactical, and less expansive.

England had a blinder start, and dominated tactics in the opening 35 minutes. NZ did what they always find a way to do, right before the half ended. Score a try. Poor Farrell kick off gave them another opportunity to go in at the half, closer than England's domination rather warranted.

England's timing at line out went to the dogs with the hooker change. No other way of looking at it. I like George, but Hartley was error free at line out time. If I was calling the line outs, I'd have steered clear of Retallick as my best option. Retallick is a beast. Wherever he was, don't throw there. Simple. Nothing special.

England's try was harshly called back, but it was certainly offside. The manner in which they contrived to blow the drop kick chance was comical.

In the end, a moral victory for England, who I thought might get smashed. Probably deserved to win, and even in defeat, feel they were robbed.

Not many get to say that after 80 minutes versus the world champs. England came out of that looking as though things are looking up. ABs not so much. Starting to look like a few veterans in their 15? A question, not a comment. Need to be careful what I say there.....

 

[Nubiwan]

I had to laugh when the England scrum half saw a lazy AB runner trotting back onside, then deciding to throw the other way. Smith or PJ would have simply milked the pen by throwing their pass directly at the runner. It's what makes them both winners, and disliked in many cases.

 

[Nubiwan]

Totally bored of people calling responses to the Haka "disrespect". It's a challenge, not some quaint piece of cultural conservation. You reply in kind.

I equate the Haka to some bloke walking into your living room and announcing he'd like to **** your wife. So, what would you do?

Not sure why we need to set aside 5 minutes for any team to dance and pull tongues at their opposition before a match.

Similarly, don't know why teams line up to watch the ABs go through their dance routine. I'd have a few balls for my team to run up and down the 22 while the opposition made asses of themselves. Completely ignore it, and render it meaningless,

 

[Nubiwan]

I'm just having fun. It was a close game.

Bean lovers beware.... Best beans advert ever!!!!!!

 

[Nubiwan]

Jones saying Hartley had a problem with his finger all week as the reason to get him off. Big call to take him off. But don't know serious a finger injury it was. Still Stuart Barnes talking out of his arse saying that's the end of Hartley's England career.

I know. Surprised not to have read more on that comment by Barnes. If anything, his second half omission will see Hartley captain England for 10 more years. Nice one Stu! Pid....

 

[Nubiwan]

England Twitter MotM nominations
So far
Owen Farrell
Maro Itoje
Ben youngs

Like da Fuk

Underhill was pretty immense for me.

 

[Nubiwan]

Should be at least 10 times, any attack we have they're miles ahead. I'll do some screencaps later, because this is the worst I've seen it

Happens. Both ways, I guarantee it.

 

[Pom in Exile]

England have spent the entire game offside, the ref never made an early call on it and they've taken advantage of it knowing he only watches the breakdown... just ridiculous

Well if he was only watching the breakdown he wasn't watching very closely, the ABs were holding on, hands in and not rolling away all game not to mention targeting men behind the breakdown who were nothing to do with it.

 

[Nubiwan]

Try. Go on Graces, you know you want to

Garces spine is a wobbly mass of quivering jelly left in the middle of Twickenham. The last thing on his mind today was overruling a TMOs decision, which effectively lets him off the hook, let alone making up his own mind for all to witness. Biggest rinsing of authority since Pontius Pilate .

 

[Pom in Exile]

George has thrown to Itoje thousands of times before, I doubt he's done much different today.

Because Itoje is that little bit smaller everything has to be spot on. If he's under pressure, he can't get quite as high as, say, Lawes to compensate, nor has he he got his wing span to adjust and compete if things aren't quite right. Retallick's 9cm taller, doesn't sound much but fine margins count at this level.

Marginal call on the Underhill try - how good was he?

Good effort, but if you don't score for 57 minutes you'll never beat the ABs.

except we did score...

 

[Pom in Exile]

Never thought England would outscore the ABs by 2 tries to 1.

3 tries to 1 FTFY

 

[Bean]

3 tries to 1 FTFY

2-1, 3-1 who cares. There is only one set of numbers that matter.

15-16.

 

[Pom in Exile]

Underhill had an absolutely unbelievable game. Carried hard and hit like a train. Underhill Curry Billy back row sound good to anyone else?

It would be good apart from at line out time which as we found out is quite important...NZ have 4 good options at the line out, puts huge pressure on the opposition.
I like Curry but I wonder if everyone is getting a little carried away, he seems to miss A LOT of tackles.

 

[Pom in Exile]

Never thought as well when saw England playing last week, but consider test matches as only test matches, it does,'t mean so much, we know the AB, those we'll meet next year, are not those we saw today.

Why not? That was virtually a full strength AB team minus Cane (Savea was one of the ABs best performers) and Moody.
England on the other hand were very undermanned and should have won and I don't buy into the weather hampered the ABs game, it rains in NZ too...a lot. Both teams would have preferred a clear day.

 

[Pom in Exile]

Yeah a wet November day at Twickenham is not the same as the conditions next year in Japan. Harder grounds and warmer weather would favour ABs game.

Wouldn't it favour ours too?