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[2018 November Tests] England vs New Zealand 10/11/18

At least he'll be within a 5 metre radius, might accidentally get in the way or something

Nowell's lack of out and out top pace doesn't hinder his defence; it's in attack it hinders him. So being one on one with Reiko I, personally, wouldn't be worried about. I would be more worried about Ashton's defence and being one on one with Reiko. Unless Ashton's defence has improved out of sight since I last saw him in an England shirt.
 
Nowell's lack of out and out top pace doesn't hinder his defence; it's in attack it hinders him. So being one on one with Reiko I, personally, wouldn't be worried about. I would be more worried about Ashton's defence and being one on one with Reiko. Unless Ashton's defence has improved out of sight since I last saw him in an England shirt.

Potentially, and Im sure we'll see this weekend. But i do remember a specific occasion for Lions where Nowell was 5 yards away from him (laterally) after a large miss pass, with a running start, and Ioane from a standing start absolutely smoked him. The way england defend, and have given large amounts of space out wide in the last year, I think that pace is required there. I could be wrong of course, but we'll see come Saturday. If Ashton is full committed defensively then I see no issue with him, its when he's been half hearted at it we've struggled. He'll be chomping at the bit on Saturday mind
 
Its not all about pace.
Imagine Ioane 20yds out running at your last man. Who do you want that man to be?
Nowell or Ashton?
 
Its not all about pace.
Imagine Ioane 20yds out running at your last man. Who do you want that man to be?
Nowell or Ashton?

Genuinely Ashton. He wouldnt find it so easy to run around him. Picture Jonny May v Nowell for instance... its not even a fair contest, but rarely as a winger do you get 20 yard run ups, thats more often than not as a full back as last line of defence

EDIT: I'm fully aware and prepared to deal with the fact I may be eating a large portion of humble pie on Saturday
 
Ashton straight in for Nowell and Mercer dropped which is very disappointing, he had a fantastic debut!
 
Genuinely Ashton. He wouldnt find it so easy to run around him. Picture Jonny May v Nowell for instance... its not even a fair contest, but rarely as a winger do you get 20 yard run ups, thats more often than not as a full back as last line of defence

EDIT: I'm fully aware and prepared to deal with the fact I may be eating a large portion of humble pie on Saturday

I meant who would you want to make the tackle ? ,so make it 5yds (head on).
 
NZ will be more scared of Ashton than of Nowell.
Neither are the quickest, but Ashton is certainly more effective in attack, and whilst Nowell is defensively solid, we already know that the kiwis can (and have) just run around him; or have we all managed to forget the Lions tour?


If Manu's not fit enough to start, then Nowell is so ply a better bench option (remember the complaints all of 1 week ago when Manu was named on the bench?)

Mercer has nothing to worry about physically, compared to anyone who isn't Billy. He really should be on the bench instead of Ewels - though TBH, neither "deserve" to be dropped. Mentally/Player management wise... the fact that he wasn't replaced with a different 8 makes me not worried about that - horses for courses (and protecting a new, young backrow against the kiwis). I would expect him to start against Japan and Australia though.
 
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(and protecting a new, young backrow against the kiwis)

Why would he need protecting? He's just done very well against a team who have recently beaten these mythical supermen in black, and really should have beaten them twice. Certainly should be on the bench again. And just how much more would he have learned against the ABs than Japan?

if Jones has picked up one British trait, its our natural mistrust of talent and youth.
 
NZ will be more scared of Ashton than of Nowell.
Neither are the quickest.

This reminded me of an article I read recently which asked a former international player who the fastest opponent or team mate they ever had was - their answer was "Ashton by far". Found this pretty surprising as I've never thought of him as being lightning quick, then again I've never really seen him caught and remember him burning Yarde when playing for the babas and that try vs Aus at Twickenham centuries ago...

Did anyone else see that article? It's irritating me that I can't remember the former player.

EDIT: in writing that it's come to me that it may have been Jim Hamilton on the rugby pod, which slightly invalidates the comments - can anyone confirm?
 
Manu is apparently "not right" according to EJ and they want to wrap him in cotton wool for future use. (We're never going to see him again in other words)

Ashton is a surprise. But in his defence he is rapid and a real attacking threat if put into space, and Slade on a good day is more than capable of doing that. The problem is that this relies on Slade having a good day.

As for D, wings never really have To contend with full frontal, big smash tackles. It's usually all about positioning and using the touch line as the extra man. Pace plays a big part in that, much more than size, and Ashton did play pretty well in France. I think that EJ had looked at Nowell, and decided he poses no attacking threat against the ABs, which I would tend to agree with, and has opted for a chance of both his wingers being able to score, and the risk of some defensive deficiencies. And as you can't ever beat the ABs by defending them for 80 mins this may well be the right call.

SBW is more than capable of containing Te'o, so he's pretty much useless, unless he can fire
Himself up into a frenzy.

We aren't completly incapable of winning this game, but let's be honest, if we do win the ABs would need to ask themselves some serious questions. I'm going to stay hopeful. Farrel to win the game in the 83rd minute with a 35 meter drop goal, having won the ball back in the 79th minute with a contentious tackle.

England 16 - 14 NZ
 
This seems appropriate...
Saw this posted on another thread by someone called Elfieldinho, and had to copy it over - superb bit of insight and analysis;

"This is awful behaviour by the Kiwis on here. You can't start complaining about how in a perfect world you'd like something stronger than the world's strongest bench for a game against this England team. It's ******** and you know it.

'We might miss having ALB on the bench.' You won't sodding miss having ALB on the bench for the simple reason that all of your players are better than all of our players and your team know what they are doing.

None of your team have ***s for hands.
All of them can see and exploit space.
They all know what a ruck is and what to do when arriving at one.
Your fly half can pass in both directions
Your scrum half can pass.
Most of them aren't broken by an insane domestic league.

If you want to fret about needing your best team against Ireland, then fair enough. You're a sight better than they are, but they are tough, clever and know how to win.

Against this England team though? You are pretending that you need an optimum line-up to combat the fifth choice pack of a team with a weak pack, playing in front of a halfback pairing that has 'stuttering and workmanlike' as the height of its ambitions. This duo will try to feed a centre pairing made up of a non-crashing crash-ball centre and an out of position Toby Flood impersonator. Behind them lurks our only good centre, hating being a full back. Our wings are good, though one is slow and the other plays with the composure of a puppy that desperately needs to ****. The front row are puddingy novices with an empty shirt saying 'Captain' nestled between them. The locks are good, but not as good as yours and one of them doesn't know the rules. Where are your problems coming from exactly?

Two of the back row might, oddly enough, be pretty good which could catch you off guard for ten minutes or so based on recent experiences. Wilson is probably our best back row forward and yet despite this is actually likely to play, much to his and the fans' collective surprise. Mercer is good (Kiwi dad) and could be picked. There's bound to be a comedian in there somewhere though and at the moment it looks likely to be Brad Shield's beard, currently playing without any help from the rest of Brad Shields.

Honest question. If you blindfolded Hansen, gathered his squad in front of him and had him pick at random, would you win? Maybe you'd need to divide them into thinnies and fatties first just to stop your half-backs having to prop. Assuming he's allowed to do that though, it wouldn't matter a damn who was in, who was out, or even where they were playing.

Either talk honestly about the dry and painful humping you're about to gleefully dish out, or start the thread for the Ireland match early and bicker about which of your world class players makes up the most perfect bench for that game. This disingenuous head scratching about whether you've got the side to do the job for Saturday is dirty pool."

Chapeau that man.
 
This reminded me of an article I read recently which asked a former international player who the fastest opponent or team mate they ever had was - their answer was "Ashton by far". Found this pretty surprising as I've never thought of him as being lightning quick, then again I've never really seen him caught and remember him burning Yarde when playing for the babas and that try vs Aus at Twickenham centuries ago...

Did anyone else see that article? It's irritating me that I can't remember the former player.

EDIT: in writing that it's come to me that it may have been Jim Hamilton on the rugby pod, which slightly invalidates the comments - can anyone confirm?

I've always thought Ashton was pretty quick to be fair he's not lightening like Daly, May or Watson but certainly not slow, I know he has his haters but to be fair I think he genuinely offers something different, he runs very good lines.
 
Manu is apparently "not right" according to EJ and they want to wrap him in cotton wool for future use. (We're never going to see him again in other words)

Ashton is a surprise. But in his defence he is rapid and a real attacking threat if put into space, and Slade on a good day is more than capable of doing that. The problem is that this relies on Slade having a good day.

As for D, wings never really have To contend with full frontal, big smash tackles. It's usually all about positioning and using the touch line as the extra man. Pace plays a big part in that, much more than size, and Ashton did play pretty well in France. I think that EJ had looked at Nowell, and decided he poses no attacking threat against the ABs, which I would tend to agree with, and has opted for a chance of both his wingers being able to score, and the risk of some defensive deficiencies. And as you can't ever beat the ABs by defending them for 80 mins this may well be the right call.

SBW is more than capable of containing Te'o, so he's pretty much useless, unless he can fire
Himself up into a frenzy.

We aren't completly incapable of winning this game, but let's be honest, if we do win the ABs would need to ask themselves some serious questions. I'm going to stay hopeful. Farrel to win the game in the 83rd minute with a 35 meter drop goal, having won the ball back in the 79th minute with a contentious tackle.

England 16 - 14 NZ
.

Loving the optimism, does Farrel put in the contentious tackle by any chance?
 
Behind them lurks our only good centre, hating being a full back.
This was the point I knew he was onto something.

Seriously why do feel the need to jam in Slade and play Daly out of position. I'd feel a lot happier if Brown was playing....and Brown isn't up to it why have we persisted with him for 2 and half years?
 
This seems appropriate...
Saw this posted on another thread by someone called Elfieldinho, and had to copy it over - superb bit of insight and analysis;

"This is awful behaviour by the Kiwis on here. You can't start complaining about how in a perfect world you'd like something stronger than the world's strongest bench for a game against this England team. It's ******** and you know it.

'We might miss having ALB on the bench.' You won't sodding miss having ALB on the bench for the simple reason that all of your players are better than all of our players and your team know what they are doing.

None of your team have ***s for hands.
All of them can see and exploit space.
They all know what a ruck is and what to do when arriving at one.
Your fly half can pass in both directions
Your scrum half can pass.
Most of them aren't broken by an insane domestic league.

If you want to fret about needing your best team against Ireland, then fair enough. You're a sight better than they are, but they are tough, clever and know how to win.

Against this England team though? You are pretending that you need an optimum line-up to combat the fifth choice pack of a team with a weak pack, playing in front of a halfback pairing that has 'stuttering and workmanlike' as the height of its ambitions. This duo will try to feed a centre pairing made up of a non-crashing crash-ball centre and an out of position Toby Flood impersonator. Behind them lurks our only good centre, hating being a full back. Our wings are good, though one is slow and the other plays with the composure of a puppy that desperately needs to ****. The front row are puddingy novices with an empty shirt saying 'Captain' nestled between them. The locks are good, but not as good as yours and one of them doesn't know the rules. Where are your problems coming from exactly?

Two of the back row might, oddly enough, be pretty good which could catch you off guard for ten minutes or so based on recent experiences. Wilson is probably our best back row forward and yet despite this is actually likely to play, much to his and the fans' collective surprise. Mercer is good (Kiwi dad) and could be picked. There's bound to be a comedian in there somewhere though and at the moment it looks likely to be Brad Shield's beard, currently playing without any help from the rest of Brad Shields.

Honest question. If you blindfolded Hansen, gathered his squad in front of him and had him pick at random, would you win? Maybe you'd need to divide them into thinnies and fatties first just to stop your half-backs having to prop. Assuming he's allowed to do that though, it wouldn't matter a damn who was in, who was out, or even where they were playing.

Either talk honestly about the dry and painful humping you're about to gleefully dish out, or start the thread for the Ireland match early and bicker about which of your world class players makes up the most perfect bench for that game. This disingenuous head scratching about whether you've got the side to do the job for Saturday is dirty pool."

Chapeau that man.
Get this person onto Sky's commentry team. Pronto!!!
 
Ashton is a surprise. But in his defence he is rapid and a real attacking threat if put into space, and Slade on a good day is more than capable of doing that. The problem is that this relies on Slade having a good day.

.......and on Slade's pack, 9, 10 and 12 delivering quick front foot ball without chewing up all the space. At least Ashton will have plenty of defending to do to keep him warm.
 
Dawson just on 5 live trying to be balanced on Shields and only managing lukewarm.

Press picking up Shields referring to Twickers as their, not our, fortress. God knows where his head must be.
 
This was the point I knew he was onto something.

Seriously why do feel the need to jam in Slade and play Daly out of position. I'd feel a lot happier if Brown was playing....and Brown isn't up to it why have we persisted with him for 2 and half years?

Based on recent events I'd agree with you 100% But let's be honest we've all been saying for some time that not only is Brown not really up to it, even assuming he was a world class 15 we really have no other options the irony of it is we all wanted someone else there and now back tracking wanting him there I do feel for coaches sometimes, I myself am as guilty of this U turn as the rest having said all that we might be in a different position if we capped someone like Woodward instead of The Daly/Watson experiments although both those players are serious weapons on the counter.
 
This seems appropriate...
Saw this posted on another thread by someone called Elfieldinho, and had to copy it over - superb bit of insight and analysis;

"This is awful behaviour by the Kiwis on here. You can't start complaining about how in a perfect world you'd like something stronger than the world's strongest bench for a game against this England team. It's ******** and you know it.

'We might miss having ALB on the bench.' You won't sodding miss having ALB on the bench for the simple reason that all of your players are better than all of our players and your team know what they are doing.

None of your team have ***s for hands.
All of them can see and exploit space.
They all know what a ruck is and what to do when arriving at one.
Your fly half can pass in both directions
Your scrum half can pass.
Most of them aren't broken by an insane domestic league.

If you want to fret about needing your best team against Ireland, then fair enough. You're a sight better than they are, but they are tough, clever and know how to win.

Against this England team though? You are pretending that you need an optimum line-up to combat the fifth choice pack of a team with a weak pack, playing in front of a halfback pairing that has 'stuttering and workmanlike' as the height of its ambitions. This duo will try to feed a centre pairing made up of a non-crashing crash-ball centre and an out of position Toby Flood impersonator. Behind them lurks our only good centre, hating being a full back. Our wings are good, though one is slow and the other plays with the composure of a puppy that desperately needs to ****. The front row are puddingy novices with an empty shirt saying 'Captain' nestled between them. The locks are good, but not as good as yours and one of them doesn't know the rules. Where are your problems coming from exactly?

Two of the back row might, oddly enough, be pretty good which could catch you off guard for ten minutes or so based on recent experiences. Wilson is probably our best back row forward and yet despite this is actually likely to play, much to his and the fans' collective surprise. Mercer is good (Kiwi dad) and could be picked. There's bound to be a comedian in there somewhere though and at the moment it looks likely to be Brad Shield's beard, currently playing without any help from the rest of Brad Shields.

Honest question. If you blindfolded Hansen, gathered his squad in front of him and had him pick at random, would you win? Maybe you'd need to divide them into thinnies and fatties first just to stop your half-backs having to prop. Assuming he's allowed to do that though, it wouldn't matter a damn who was in, who was out, or even where they were playing.

Either talk honestly about the dry and painful humping you're about to gleefully dish out, or start the thread for the Ireland match early and bicker about which of your world class players makes up the most perfect bench for that game. This disingenuous head scratching about whether you've got the side to do the job for Saturday is dirty pool."

Chapeau that man.

two things, England beat South Africa...and they beat us at home not long ago... so it not a huge leap to be cautious of a surprise

secondly, as soon as any kiwi comes on here a declares confidence in a win we get branded with "typical kiwi arrogance"
 
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