2018 NatWest Six Nations: Round 1 - France v Ireland

[Amiga500]

But that is why you cap it at say 10 or 14 or whatever

So you've 3 subs for the backs, 3-5 for the backrow/2nd row and 6-8 for massive props that can't last longer than 10 mins?

That means your starting prop could go off twice and come back on twice. Nah. Don't like that.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

How is rolling subs going to reduce head injuries?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

So you've 3 subs for the backs, 3-5 for the backrow/2nd row and 6-8 for massive props that can't last longer than 10 mins?

That means your starting prop could go off twice and come back on twice. Nah. Don't like that.

Yeah that's awful. The main thing splitting rugby players from NFL players is the level of fitness that rugby players have to maintain rather than just being able to have a 10 minute burst and then a rest. Personally would rather not see props become Eddie Hall type 200kg freaks that can't run. Sub system is fine as it is.

 

[munstermuffin]

How is rolling subs going to reduce head injuries?

Well issue now isn't preventing head injury. That is covered it more stopping the use of rule to get a guy back on

 

[Leinster Fan]

I do think that people are overplaying the mediocrity of the Irish performance, it was Ireland in Paris in the rain with centres that were offering nothing in attack, I dunno what people were expecting to happen.

We won without playing that well and that's what England did last year, it was heralded as a trait of champions etc.

 

[munstermuffin]

I do think that people are overplaying the mediocrity of the Irish performance, it was Ireland in Paris in the rain with centres that were offering nothing in attack, I dunno what people were expecting to happen.

We won without playing that well and that's what England did last year, it was heralded as a trait of champions etc.

To be fair there was a stat bit done on Examiner and other papers too. Yes it was a 1 off game but it was mediocre and there is alot of fact to back it up. Even more so than was said on here.

Statistically over the past 3 years Ireland have been the team players have made most tackles against and we are 8th in list of gaining metres despite being 3rd in terms of possession. We also seem to be the easiest team to tackle statistically.
And we are statistically 10th in terms of converting red zone territory in to tries.

For defenders beaten we are 7th in world.

As I said earlier Ireland are efficient and that is there strength. We are not a fun entertaining team to watch. Ireland never were so no point trying to say otherwise but they are a well drilled machine who go through the script and keep score ticking over.
Excluding famous game in Chicago we have never let the reigns off but that doesn't mean they're not efficient and tough to break

 

[ncurd]

On rolling subs any limit will be fully utilised so if it were say 15 you can be damn sure 15 will be used before 80 mins is up. So in the dying moments of the game you still run into trouble with HIA's.

Unless you uncap rolling subs the same issue applies.

What has to be done is a thorough investigation each time a team has a HIA after using all subs. If silly buggers are involved deduct them championship points.

 

[Which Tyler]

On rolling subs any limit will be fully utilised so if it were say 15 you can be damn sure 15 will be used before 80 mins is up. So in the dying moments of the game you still run into trouble with HIA's.

Unless you uncap rolling subs the same issue applies.

What has to be done is a thorough investigation each time a team has a HIA after using all subs. If silly buggers are involved deduct them championship points.

Which team gets the points deduction for an independent decision? As Nige called the second HIA, do Wales get a points deduction? Had the independent Doc been a saffer to ensure no bias, does that mean SA start the QN with a points deduction? Given that neither contentious decision had anything to do with the French rugby team, why would they be punished for someone else's decision?

Given that these issues are about the independent Doc, not the team Doc - does that just mean that if the independent Doc wants one team to win, then he calls the opposition off for HIA, and gets them docked points.


Nah, the more I think about it, the more i think that the current system is right - so long as the independence of the independent Doc is guaranteed, whilst still being a specialist in the filed of rugby pitch-side neurology. - and if this isn't the case, then it's an obvious loophole to close.

There were 2 occasions this weekend.
1. The independent Doc thought they saw something concerning which the rest of us didn't. Given that the doc is looking at many more camera angles, from many more points in time, it's possible that they were right. It's also possible that they over-reacted, or that they simply reacted differently to the pictures we did see, or that they were cheating for no reason (assuming that they are genuinely independent).
2. The ref called for an HIA, and the HIA was agreed. Now unless we think that Nige was cheating on France's behalf, there's not really any debate. You could argue that the independent Doc agreed with the ref, but then the ref indicating that he's seen a head injury is absolutely justification to call for an HIA - if this is the argument, then it's really clutching at straws.

The first calls into question the independence of the independent Doc - which we just don't know.
The second is a bunch of knicker twisting over nothing.
Both are a hell of a lot better than leaving/returning a clearly concussed player to the field of play.

 

[Which Tyler]

At the end of the day, Rugby teams cheat, they cheated when subs had to be injury replacements, they cheated to get uncontested scrums, they cheated with blood to return a replaced player to the pitch, and now they cheat to get a 10 minute rest, or 10 minute replacement.

Before we propose any solution, we need to identify what problem we're trying to solve.
Then we need to say how that solution will solve the problem.
And we need to look at how the solution will be gamed in and of itself.

The problems yesterday were that the independent Doc MAY have over-reacted; and that the ref did over-reacted.

 

[Which Tyler]

According to the time, it's World Rugby who are at fault. The independent Doctor was Gilles Garet, the vice-president of FFR's medical committee, and not even slightly independent.

They also say that the Dupont HIA was called by Paul Williams, who told Nige and the 4th official (Caharabas, who's name would be on the form as part of his job).
Charabas then (wrongly) tried to halt the protocol when Dupont said that it was his knee, Garet (rightly) pointed out that he can't do that.

Bear in mind, George North thought he'd hurt his shoulder, unaware that he'd been unconscious, Dom Ryan thought he was winded, unaware that he'd been unconscious, Motu Matu'u thought it was just a head knock, possibly being unaware that he'd been unconscious... etc etc. Ref, or TJ saying that they've seen cause for an HIA means that an HIA happens, the only person who can over-rule that is the ref, who won't.

Proposed solution: "Independent" should mean "independent" - as opposed to "not on the medical team"
Other people's proposals: NZ should be docked championship points... next time they're in a championship with Ireland (the victims here, no doubt) would be the RWC19. I think we can all agree that a 5 point deduction for NZ there would be fair?

 

[Amiga500]

Good article in the42 about our problems.

As usual , the unfair burden on Sexton as our only playmaker.

Rob Kearney had a very good game defensively at the weekend, so I'm loath to drag him into this off the back of it - but if Joe is gonna go with Aki and Henshaw in the centre then he needs another creator at 15 to bring more fluidity to the attack.

Carbery could be that man.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

http://www.the42.ie/analysis-ireland-attack-reliant-france-3835832-Feb2018/

Nothing surprising in this article but I think it is interesting that Schmidt is trying to make Henshaw a creative force and it shows how much he values Kearney's defensive contribution to the team. He knows we're suspect defenders out wide all of the wingers, except Ferg, prone to missed tackles and bad positioning which puts us under pressure. Right now Ireland have one other creative option, Joey Carbery, who is the back up 10 and is a 15 option, as an attacking option at 15 he is used far more at 1st or 2nd receiver than anywhere else in the backline. Screens to him would be much more effective than screens to Henshaw or a returning Ringrose but at both 1st and 2nd receiver he still has a tendency to not back the pass and take the ball on himself, he's very effective at this but the inconsistency at this point in his career and his inferior positioning to Kearney don't have him challenging RK in big games for either club or country yet. The other options are Larmour, who again is an electric runner but he's not going to bring the playmaking skill that the backline needs while still being nowhere near RK in terms of his defence. Zebo wasn't getting picked because, as he said himself, he wasn't disciplined enough to work with Joe. Payne took his chance and his career ended months later unfortunately. TO'H is a liability. Conway is very much in the Kearney mold and is his only challenger right now but won't sharpen the attack.

While there's plenty of other options at 15 and Carbery would bring the edge we need, I think the compromise is more defensively astute wingers and then you're looking at Ferg and A.N Other which is impossible while Earls is comfortably the best back three player and Stockdale, or potentially Larmour, the best finisher. Schmidt either has to figure out a way to win without dominating territory, and he's never done that, or find a centre that can create. Henshaw and Ringrose are good enough at 12 and 13, past that we can hope Scannell steps up or, what I'd do in charge, start getting Leinster to play Carbery at 12 now that they have three 15 options in RK, Larmour and Lowe. We're crying out for a 12 like Farrell to play with Henshaw at 13 where he is more effective as our defensive leader and push Ringrose to the bench, Carbery has the potential to be better.

Just saw Amiga's post after I wrote this.

 

[Jockstap]

http://www.the42.ie/analysis-ireland-attack-reliant-france-3835832-Feb2018/

Nothing surprising in this article but I think it is interesting that Schmidt is trying to make Henshaw a creative force and it shows how much he values Kearney's defensive contribution to the team. He knows we're suspect defenders out wide all of the wingers, except Ferg, prone to missed tackles and bad positioning which puts us under pressure. Right now Ireland have one other creative option, Joey Carbery, who is the back up 10 and is a 15 option, as an attacking option at 15 he is used far more at 1st or 2nd receiver than anywhere else in the backline. Screens to him would be much more effective than screens to Henshaw or a returning Ringrose but at both 1st and 2nd receiver he still has a tendency to not back the pass and take the ball on himself, he's very effective at this but the inconsistency at this point in his career and his inferior positioning to Kearney don't have him challenging RK in big games for either club or country yet. The other options are Larmour, who again is an electric runner but he's not going to bring the playmaking skill that the backline needs while still being nowhere near RK in terms of his defence. Zebo wasn't getting picked because, as he said himself, he wasn't disciplined enough to work with Joe. Payne took his chance and his career ended months later unfortunately. TO'H is a liability. Conway is very much in the Kearney mold and is his only challenger right now but won't sharpen the attack.

While there's plenty of other options at 15 and Carbery would bring the edge we need, I think the compromise is more defensively astute wingers and then you're looking at Ferg and A.N Other which is impossible while Earls is comfortably the best back three player and Stockdale, or potentially Larmour, the best finisher. Schmidt either has to figure out a way to win without dominating territory, and he's never done that, or find a centre that can create. Henshaw and Ringrose are good enough at 12 and 13, past that we can hope Scannell steps up or, what I'd do in charge, start getting Leinster to play Carbery at 12 now that they have three 15 options in RK, Larmour and Lowe. We're crying out for a 12 like Farrell to play with Henshaw at 13 where he is more effective as our defensive leader and push Ringrose to the bench, Carbery has the potential to be better.

Just saw Amiga's post after I wrote this.

Carbery isn't physically up for it at 12. Owen Farrell is a big guy.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Carbery isn't physically up for it at 12. Owen Farrell is a big guy.

Listed at 86kg, could easily get up to 90 without affecting his game, he's bigger than Giteau ever was.

 

[Jockstap]

Listed at 86kg, could easily get up to 90 without affecting his game, he's bigger than Giteau ever was.

Maybe, but from what I've seen of Carbery so far I just don't see it. Seems to slight, hope I'm wrong as offensively it could be special.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Maybe, but from what I've seen of Carbery so far I just don't see it. Seems to slight, hope I'm wrong as offensively it could be special.

Yeah that's fair, I'd definitely like to see them try it anyway, it'd become clear in a few low risk Pro 14 or Euro group games if its plausible anyway.

 

[stus768]

So not only did some arse of a ticket inspector fine me and my mate for accidently getting on the wrong train but we paid 10 euros a pint (including deposit for cups we couldn't return as the bars were closed) for non-alcoholic beers?!?! That were not advertised as such.
Why did they shut the bars at half time then??
Livid.

 

[Amiga500]

what I'd do in charge, start getting Leinster to play Carbery at 12 now that they have three 15 options in RK, Larmour and Lowe. We're crying out for a 12 like Farrell to play with Henshaw at 13 where he is more effective as our defensive leader and push Ringrose to the bench, Carbery has the potential to be better.

Just saw Amiga's post after I wrote this.

Here - just had a thought. What about J10 to.... J12? Then Carbery to 10.

Would give him a bit of protection from the backrow rather than leaving him quite exposed at 12.

Although, would Carbery be able to make the appropriate kick/pass selection? (not so worried about kick execution, he's pretty good feet on him)

 

[Brigantine]

ESPN: "Six Nations: Disciplinary action not ruled out over France v Ireland HIAs"

 

[Amiga500]

ESPN: "Six Nations: Disciplinary action not ruled out over France v Ireland HIAs"

edit: Misread that headline!