[2017 Six Nations] - Wales

[Ospreylian]

Let's kick off the Welsh Six Nations discussion on the eve of Howley's squad announcement.

Here's what my ideal 23 for the opener against Italy would be:

1. Nicky Smith
2. Ken Owens
3. Thomas Francis
4. Jake Ball
5. Alun-Wyn Jones (C)
6. Warburton
7. Tipuric
8. Moriarty

9. G Davies
10. Biggar
11. Giles (if fit, Steff Evans if not)
12. Beck
13. S Williams
14. Halfpenny
15. L Williams

Bench: R Evans, Dacey, Lee, Charteris, King/Cracknell/Young, Webb, S Davies, North

Obviously Jenkins and Faletau are injured. Webb is on the bench because of a lack of game time. Warburton only just made it into my starting back row for his all-round game, and he is under a lot of pressure from the next in line. I was impressed with Nicky Smith in the Autumn, and seems to be developing into a Jenkins-style loosehead.

In the backs I'd keep Biggar starting for now. I do believe Sam Davies will eventually overtake him, but for now he still needs to iron out some of his flaws at club level. Keelan Giles HAS to start if he is available, 11 tries in 9 games says a lot about his potential compared to shoving Cuthbert back in the team yet again. If he misses out because of his injury, Steff Evans is almost as good a replacement right now and plays some really clever attacking rugby. Roberts/J Davies is dead, at least for the time being. Neither are adapting to the current game, whereas both Beck and Scott Williams have shown attacking awareness in recent games and are far more balanced. I would move Halfpenny to the right wing where he played well during the Autumn, which means North misses out. I don't think this would be a bad thing for George though; I think he needs to prove his worth again and perhaps leaving him out of the starting XV would motivate him.

 

[dullonien]

Not far off from what I'd pick, but I'd make a few changes:

1. Rob Evans. I'm 50/50 between him and Smith. I think Smith is the better all round player, but Rob Evans has seriously impressed me since his return. His scrummaging has come on leaps and bounds, while his carrying doesn't disappoint. Ultimately, I think Smith makes for the better impact sub, with his footwork to beat defenders more effective against tired legs than Evans' direct approach. Great young combo to have.
2. Ken Owens. Loads of competition here, with Dacey and Parry pushing especially hard. For the time being I'd retain the incumbent Owens, but the pressure is on. As I've said previously, I see Ryan Elias as the long term option, but he's not ready yet.
3. Samson Lee. Back approaching his best for the Scarlets, with his scrummaging in particular standing out. Not the dynamic option that some other countries are blessed with at tighthead, but neither is Francis, and overall Samson is a better player than Francis. Really need to start blooding a couple of new options here, namely Dillon Lewis & Leon Brown who look like modern day props.
4. Jake Ball. Really caught the eye in recent weeks/months, looking more like the player that made such an impact in his first international season. Shows what a prolonged period of injury free rugby can do.
5. AWJ (c). Playing the best rugby of his life imo. The extra handling and skills sessions the Ospreys have been doing with their front five is obvious to see. He's never been weak in the handling department, but he's taken things to the next level, introducing some delicate handling and offloading to his game setting him apart. Obvious choice for captain!
6. Thomas Young. Screw it, if there's a game for him to be involved in, it's this one. Cracknell has impressed me hugely, but Young's form is too good to dismiss. Warburton should be given time to regain full fitness, because he's definitely not fully fit atm, and hasn't been for years.
7. Justin Tipuric. Along with AWJ, he should be one of the first names on the team-sheet imo. He is just a phenomenal rugby player, who given a run as first choice for Wales will prove his class to the whole world. Yes, I love Tips.
8. Moriarty. Faletau, if fit, shouldn't be rushed straight back in. Let him have a run-out for Bath, then consider his return. Moriarty is a more than adequate stand-in, even if he's a better blindside.

9. Gareth Davies. Not convinced Webb will be ready for this one. I know he seems to return like he's never been away but still, no need to rush him. I'm not 100% happy with Davies, and part of me wants to see one of Jonathan Evans, Thomos Williams, Habberfield or Aled Davies instead. The problem is that none of our scrum half's other than Webb when fit is consistently first choice for their region. Scarlets change their mind every week, which some may argue keeps all three on their toes, but I can't help worry that it allows none of them time to fully settle. Blues keep playing Lloyd Williams ahead of Thomos, but the Japan game was the last straw for me re Lloyd. Habberfield is a fine player, but possibly not international quality yet.
10. Sam Davies. Biggar has had a bit of a resurgence of late for the O's. Looks like the competition with Sam Davies has really spurred him on. Still doesn't change my opinion that Davies should be our starting 10. Him all round game is very close to what I'd want from my ideal outside half, with a clever and varied kicking game, more than solid goal kicking, a running game which consistently keeps defenders on their toes, and distribution which puts those around him into acres of space.
11. Keelan Giles/Steff Evans. In both these players we have gifted runners, Giles is a freak though! Evans' all round game, such as his kicking and defense is more developed. Really hope we get to see Giles play this 6 nations though, he could be the real deal imo.
12. Ashley Beck. More suited to inside center, where his distribution will release the pressure on our 10. His angles of running would really help tie in defenders as well. Lacks a little pace to play at 13 internationally imo. Maybe lacks an international quality boot to act as an extra kicking option to relieve pressure.
13. Scott Williams. Has to start, and on his day, he's an ideal outside center, with the pace to make an outside break, good strength, and a solid (if sometimes malfunctioning) distribution game. Not a huge amount of options in the center, but neither Roberts or Davies deserve to start.
14. Leigh Halfpenny. As Ospreylian mentioned, North could do with a kick up the arse, so Halfpenny comes in here to add some real solidity (always need some imo).
15. Liam Williams. Not in great form for the Scarlets atm, forcing things too often and making mistakes. Deserves another chance at fullback for Wales to show he should be our first choice there.

Bench : Dacey, Smith, Francis, Charteris, Warburton, Webb, Biggar, North.

 

[AzaMatt]

great teams both, i would be happy with either. however i feel we will see the usual suspects. might be a slight variation against italy but howley will revert to type for the england/ireland games. heres my suggested starting 15 for Italy

1. Nicky Smith - perhaps not as good a scrummager as Evans but i think Smith deserves a start against italy as he is unlikely to get a start in the other games

2. Sam Parry - it isnt going to happen but if we're going on form then for me, Parry just edges it over Owens

3. Samson Lee - Seeing as we might be a little weaker on the looshead id start with Lee on the tight

4. Jake Ball - 100% deserves the spot.

5. Alun-Wyn Jones (C) - see above

6. Moriaty/Young/Cracknall - unlikely that young will even get a call up yet alone game time

7. Tipuric - No brainer

8. Moriarty/falatau - This all depends on Faltau's injury status, if still out then id have Moriaty here with Cracknall at 6 (although likely to be Warbs)

9. G Davies - i do not doubt webb's ability to come out fit and firing after injury, but i would not risk it.

10. Biggar - IMO has developed even more since the AI's, seems to be trying to make breaks himself and carrying the ball to the line much more often

11. Steff Evans - Even if Giles recovers i do not think it will be enough to get him in the team. id love to seem him play but Evans deserves it at the moment

12. Beck - i would also go with the centres this way around as you both stated. although i think it likely we will still see williams and JD2

13. S Williams

14. Liam Williams - outstanding fullback but hear me out. if we had the usual suspeects then he would have JD2 inside him, who very rarely passes (some may argue he cannot pass although i think that is harsh). Scott Williams on the other hand has great vision and passing (although doesnt always go as planned)


15. Halfpenny - without a doubt the most solid Full back we have for his all round game. i just wish he would come into the attacking line more often as L.williams does. although i think this is a coaching issue when playing for wales as he does enter the line when playing for Toulon

 

[MojoPin]

Team announcement:

Forwards:

Scott Andrews (Cardiff Blues) (13 Caps), Nicky Smith (Ospreys) (7 Caps), Rob Evans (Scarlets) (12 Caps), Rhodri Jones (Ospreys) (14 Caps), Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs) (17 Caps), Samson Lee (Scarlets) (29 Caps), Kristian Dacey (Cardiff Blues) (3 Caps), Ken Owens (Scarlets) (45 Caps), Scott Baldwin (Ospreys (28 Caps), Jake Ball (Scarlets) (21 Caps) Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys) (105 Caps) Rory Thornton (Ospreys) (Uncapped) Luke Charteris (Bath Rugby) (71 Caps) Cory Hill (Newport Gwent Dragons) (3 Caps) James King (Ospreys) (10 Caps) Justin Tipuric (Ospreys) (46 Caps) Olly Cracknell (Ospreys) (Uncapped) Ross Moriarty (Gloucester Rugby) (12 Caps) Taulupe Faletau (Bath Rugby) (62 Caps) * Sam Warburton (Cardiff Blues) (69 Caps) Thomas Young (Wasps) (Uncapped)

Backs:

Gareth Davies (Scarlets) (21 Caps) Rhys Webb (Ospreys) (23 Caps) Aled Davies (Scarlets) (Uncapped) Dan Biggar (Ospreys) (51 Caps) Sam Davies (Ospreys) (3 Caps)Owen Williams (Leicester Tigers) (Uncapped) Jamie Roberts (Harlequins) (86 Caps) * Jonathan Davies (Scarlets) (59 Caps) Scott Williams (Scarlets) (41 Caps) Ashton Hewitt (Newport Gwent Dragons) (Uncapped) Alex Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues) (44 Caps) Steffan Evans (Scarlets) (Uncapped) George North (Northampton Saints) (65 Caps) * Liam Williams (Scarlets) (38 Caps) Leigh Halfpenny (Toulon) (66 Caps)

Seven new caps! Genuinely surprised to see Owen Williams and Thomas Young brought in but a good move by Howley to be fair - just hope he uses them! Massive potential in the backs too, with Steff Evans and Ashton Hewitt coming in.

 

[AzaMatt]

owen williams!?! jesus. was not expecting that many uncapped lads. hope they are not just holding the tackle bags though and actually get some game time

 

[welshglory]

I like that squad. Don't agree with Scott Andrews or Rhodri Jones, and would have liked to have seen Beck, not sold on Cory Hill as an international lock either. Glad to see no Josh Turnbull or Gareth Anscombe

I wonder if theyre looking at Owen Williams as cover for 12?

 

[MojoPin]

I like that squad. Don't agree with Scott Andrews or Rhodri Jones, and would have liked to have seen Beck, not sold on Cory Hill as an international lock either. Glad to see no Josh Turnbull or Gareth Anscombe

I wonder if theyre looking at Owen Williams as cover for 12?

I think that must be the case with Williams, maybe Cuthbert as well as he's filled in there for the Blues recently. Agreed on Scott Andrews too - he's OK for the Blues but don't really see why he merits international selection. Dacey has been playing well but still think Sam Parry deserves to be ahead of him, too.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Shrieked by Owen
1) Took a pretty nasty injury v wasps
2) Been a bit average last few weeks.

But def has the bottle in clutch situations.

 

[j'nuh]

Shrieked by Owen
1) Took a pretty nasty injury v wasps
2) Been a bit average last few weeks.

But def has the bottle in clutch situations.

I don't get it tbh. Next year, Gatland's Law means picking three of North, (Liam) Williams, Faletau, Roberts and possibly Halfpenny. With his new contract with Gloucester, Owen won't be exempt any more. Owen is unlikely to have any future with Wales for the next couple of years at least, unless he gets really good and earns an exemption spot.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I don't get it tbh. Next year, Gatland's Law means picking three of North, (Liam) Williams, Faletau, Roberts and possibly Halfpenny. With his new contract with Gloucester, Owen won't be exempt any more. Owen is unlikely to have any future with Wales for the next couple of years at least, unless he gets really good and earns an exemption spot.

So many loopholes in Gatlands law.
If a player hasn't been given a serious offer by a Welsh region it doesn't count.

 

[MojoPin]

I don't get it tbh. Next year, Gatland's Law means picking three of North, (Liam) Williams, Faletau, Roberts and possibly Halfpenny. With his new contract with Gloucester, Owen won't be exempt any more. Owen is unlikely to have any future with Wales for the next couple of years at least, unless he gets really good and earns an exemption spot.

He wasn't offered a deal in Wales, so as I understand it that means he is not affected by Gatland's Law. Certainly if it was a 50/50 decision between him and another player, he may lose out, but otherwise I don't think it comes into it. The Blues approached him but didn't make an offer, much to my personal disappointment!

 

[Bada-Bing!]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38649131

So BBC and Walesonline were right about Sam relinquishing the captaincy. AWJ takes over.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

He wasn't offered a deal in Wales, so as I understand it that means he is not affected by Gatland's Law. Certainly if it was a 50/50 decision between him and another player, he may lose out, but otherwise I don't think it comes into it. The Blues approached him but didn't make an offer, much to my personal disappointment!

Scarlets offered him deal from what I gather, but Glous offered a lot more.

 

[anderton46]

I think that must be the case with Williams, maybe Cuthbert as well as he's filled in there for the Blues recently. Agreed on Scott Andrews too - he's OK for the Blues but don't really see why he merits international selection. Dacey has been playing well but still think Sam Parry deserves to be ahead of him, too.

My God. Cuthbert is dangerous enough to Wales hopes of winning the game when he's on the wing and has little ball, let alone being a key operator in the midfield. I hope you jest.

That performance against Ulster was so bad I was genuinely embarrassed for the guy.

 

[AzaMatt]

This squad has certainly given the public a real feel good buzz but the match day squad will be the real indication of Howley's plans. apparently howley said he sees williams as cover for 10 or 12, which is slightly worrying as seems as though hes there just in case of injury. i highly doubt Howley will switch Scott williams to 13 to play owen williams at 12. although should that happen and liam williams is picked at 14. we could hear "williams to Williams to Williams". Just a shame Lloyd Williams wasnt picked!

 

[dullonien]

Overall a positive squad.

As others have pointed out, don't agree with Andrews or Rhodri Jones, would have preferred to see a youngster given a shot. Little to no game time at their regions for Dillon Lewis/Leon Brown probably tied Howleys hands though. Baldwin is a little lucky to retain his spot ahead of Parry, who's primarily been first choice for the O's this season.

In the backs, real shame not to see Beck involved ahead/as well as Roberts and DJ2. He's just the sort of centre we should be pushing. Cuthbert should have been left at the Blues to either re-gain form or slowly fade into the night! Shame about Giles' injury, presence of Hewitt and Evans shows he would have made it if fit.

On the positive side, great to see Cracknell, Young, Williams, Hewitt and Evans involved, now fingers crossed at least some of them are given the opportunity out on the pitch.

 

[valley commando]

Howler has made some good choices much to my surprise, especially with the uncapped boys, however why has he picked Dacey and Baldwin and not Sam Parry who is the form hooker in Wales ?
I doubt his ******** are big enough to start any of the new boys and why the f*** has he picked Roberts and Cuthbert when we are trying to play a more open game. Webby is in without proving his fitness, why not have Giles in as well, he may well be fit by game 3. Last of all his most glaring omission is Beck, like Parry the form player in his position.

- - - Updated - - -

great teams both, i would be happy with either. however i feel we will see the usual suspects. might be a slight variation against italy but howley will revert to type for the england/ireland games. heres my suggested starting 15 for Italy

1. Nicky Smith - perhaps not as good a scrummager as Evans but i think Smith deserves a start against italy as he is unlikely to get a start in the other games

2. Sam Parry - it isnt going to happen but if we're going on form then for me, Parry just edges it over Owens

3. Samson Lee - Seeing as we might be a little weaker on the looshead id start with Lee on the tight

4. Jake Ball - 100% deserves the spot.

5. Alun-Wyn Jones (C) - see above

6. Moriaty/Young/Cracknall - unlikely that young will even get a call up yet alone game time

7. Tipuric - No brainer

8. Moriarty/falatau - This all depends on Faltau's injury status, if still out then id have Moriaty here with Cracknall at 6 (although likely to be Warbs)

9. G Davies - i do not doubt webb's ability to come out fit and firing after injury, but i would not risk it.

10. Biggar - IMO has developed even more since the AI's, seems to be trying to make breaks himself and carrying the ball to the line much more often

11. Steff Evans - Even if Giles recovers i do not think it will be enough to get him in the team. id love to seem him play but Evans deserves it at the moment

12. Beck - i would also go with the centres this way around as you both stated. although i think it likely we will still see williams and JD2

13. S Williams

14. Liam Williams - outstanding fullback but hear me out. if we had the usual suspeects then he would have JD2 inside him, who very rarely passes (some may argue he cannot pass although i think that is harsh). Scott Williams on the other hand has great vision and passing (although doesnt always go as planned)


15. Halfpenny - without a doubt the most solid Full back we have for his all round game. i just wish he would come into the attacking line more often as L.williams does. although i think this is a coaching issue when playing for wales as he does enter the line when playing for Toulon

Excellent choice, better than Howler will pick come 1st game, you should apply for his job when he gets sacked, he bizarrely omitted Beck and Parry from the squad which shows how inept he is as a head coach.
I would only swap one player from your 15, Sam D for Biggar.

 

[ae15]

Haven't posted on here in ages, but I have to say that generally I am very pleased with that squad.

My only issues are:
1. Why is the form hooker in Wales still not in the squad (Sam Parry if you're wondering).
2. Why is Cuthbert is still in the squad? I can't think of a worse winger in international rugby, if not top flight rugby. Doesn't score tries, can't defend, can't tackle, can't deal with the high ball. There's nothing this guy can do not to get picked! I feel sorry for him because he really is trying hard, but that's just not good enough. He's only had one good game in the last three and half years and that's the South Africa second test. Other than that, he's been awful.
3. Only three centres, with two completely out of form? That really doesn't bode well for our attack at all.
4. Why not give Keelan a chance? We don't even know the extent of his injury yet.
5. Scott Andrews. Really don't understand what this guy brings. We've already got three tightheads anyway.

Very happy with the back row though, would have been that exact selection. Happy with Hewitt and Evans rightfully getting their chances and happy Owen Williams has finally got in the squad.

As for a team, we need to pick on form so badly.

1. Nicky Smith - Rob Evans hasn't been fit all that long and although he's in great form, so is Nicky, especially with his strong ball carrying.
2. Ken Owens - We've got to be strong in the loose and handle the ball well and in my opinion, other than Parry, this guy is the best still at the moment.
3. Tomas Francis - He finished the autumns very strongly and I think he should pick up where he left off.
4. Luke Charteris - A tough one with Hill and Thornton in such good form but he's still very important in securing the line out and stopping the maul.
5. Alun Wyn Jones - Rightfully captain now, will provide stability.
6. Thomas Young - Warburton isn't providing the attack in the rucks we've become used to, most probably because of fitness. This guy will do that and is bang in form.
7. Justin Tipuric - A must at disrupting the quick ball and providing some attacking quality that we so lack.
8. Taulupe Faletau/Moriarty - Faletau is clearly our best 8 but if he doesn't play before the Italy game then it should be Ross.
9. Rhys Webb/G Davies - Same as above, yet the gap between Gareth and Aled is shrinking quickly, with the former perhaps the most dangerous still of the two.
10. Sam Davies - A necessity for a more expansive game, the stat that proves is worth is the gap between him and Biggar in Pro12 try assists (8-2). The far more dangerous fly half, far more comfortable with taking it to the line and although he will be less dependable, he's the future of the position and needs his chance.
12. Owen Williams - A bit of a left field choice, but neither Roberts nor Davies are attacking the line with anywhere near the success of 2012/13 and neither have the best handling ability. Owen, like his namesake Farrell, could be the creative influence at 12 to unlock the doors of the other defences without simply breaking it down while creating the space for Scott Williams to tear apart opposition defences like we know he can.
13. Scott Williams - Well, obviously. The only question is 12 or 13.
11. George North - Just. Completely out of form and unfit, but dangerous enough that he's still worth the persistence.
14. Leigh Halfpenny - Despite the otherwise dismal performance, he looked far more dangerous on the wing than at full back against Japan and allows Liam Williams to flourish in his best position.
15. Liam Williams - The best player in NZ and the best attacking threat in the team at the moment. Full back is his best position, and that's where he should play to get the best out of him.

16. Scott Baldwin
17. Rob Evans
18. Samson Lee
19. Cory Hill
20. Sam Warburton
21. Davies/Davies
22. Dan Biggar
23. Ashton Hewitt

 

[dullonien]

No mention of Ball ae15? I was critical of him last season, but he's easily been the second best lock at regional/club level this season. Charteris is not long back from injury, whilst I'm still not convinced that Hill is either powerful/aggressive enough or skillful/athletic enough yo compete with the plethora of quality locks out there ATM. I've got a lot of time for Thorntun, and learning from one of the best at the O's puts him in a good spot.

Steff Evans over Ashton Hewitt for me atm, be it starting or on the bench, depending on how North is handled. Hewitt's pace is something else, but Evans has shown against some top opposition that his all round game is a little more developed.

Other than that, that's what I'd probably go for. Again, I'm undecided about loosehead, whilst there's not much in it on the tight head side either.

Have we got England second up? May be worth risking both Faletau and Webb if so, giving them a good run-out v Italy to get them up to speed for England?

 

[ae15]

No mention of Ball ae15? I was critical of him last season, but he's easily been the second best lock at regional/club level this season. Charteris is not long back from injury, whilst I'm still not convinced that Hill is either powerful/aggressive enough or skillful/athletic enough yo compete with the plethora of quality locks out there ATM. I've got a lot of time for Thorntun, and learning from one of the best at the O's puts him in a good spot.

Steff Evans over Ashton Hewitt for me atm, be it starting or on the bench, depending on how North is handled. Hewitt's pace is something else, but Evans has shown against some top opposition that his all round game is a little more developed.

Other than that, that's what I'd probably go for. Again, I'm undecided about loosehead, whilst there's not much in it on the tight head side either.

Have we got England second up? May be worth risking both Faletau and Webb if so, giving them a good run-out v Italy to get them up to speed for England?

Yeah I don't know about Ball. He's clearly playing very well at the moment, but I do find him a bit of a jack of all trades, too much like Alun Wyn in that respect. There's room for him on the bench though if it's viewed that he's that in form. I don't see him as that great of a line out option and not great enough in the loose to make that big of an impact. Charteris bring expertise in the line out and the maul, with a defensive game to match the best forwards in the world. Like Ball, still not the best handler though.

Yeah I don't mind about Steff or Ashton, both I'd be happy with. Anything but Cuthbert on the bench.