[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 5: Ireland vs England (18/03/2017)

[Mike Rolls]

Can't think of a single unit where I'd go for the current team.

Maybe Farrell and Joseph over Catt and Greenwood who started the 03 semi or Greenwood / Tindall in the final, but otherwise I don't even think it's close. But 03 was a highly experienced team at / past its peak who'd beaten the ABs on their own patch. Current lot are a work in progress.

Vickery, maybe Thompson, Johnno, the back row, Wilkinson and Robinson were arguably all the best in the world in their positions at various times. Not got many of those at the moment.

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No, just no. Kay was more of a technical player who complemented Johnno perfectly. For his leadership Johnno was streets above any of the current contenders. And don't forget that Kay was picked above high calibre rivals in Shaw and Grewcock.

Perhaps I am being unfair to Kay for messing up that try in the final. I think that my scream of anguish is probably still echoing around the world!
Mike

 

[ulsterman]

why did we leave it so late to try something different or new..joe is a great coach but he doesnt back his 23 players..POM and payne should have been in the team after the scottish game..i know payne had a slight injury concern..henderson is our best all rounder at lock..a complete athlete.

I agree. Heslip is not the player he was and with Munster's European and Pro12 form going into the championship, it should have been CJ at 8 and O'Mahony at 6. Sean O'Brien struggled in my opinion, dropping the ball a lot in the Welsh and England games. Van see Flier will surely take that place off him when he is fit? Henderson should always be in the starting 15; he plays well in a pretty poor Ulster team. Payne is quality; he just got injured at the wrong time but finished strong.

 

[The Jones Boy]

A depleted Irish side lifted their effort and put paid to the long mediocre run of the flat track bullies.
A glorious result.
Step onto the podium Mr Schmidt.
Poor little Eddie
Found out already

 

[munstermuffin]

A depleted Irish side lifted their effort and put paid to the long mediocre run of the flat track bullies.
A glorious result.
Step onto the podium Mr Schmidt.
Poor little Eddie
Found out already

The thing is some would argue that's Ireland best pack that started

 

[The Jones Boy]

Not me, and no Conor Murray, hard times but the Irish depth is getting better.

 

[munstermuffin]

Not me, and no Conor Murray, hard times but the Irish depth is getting better.

Sorry meant pack. Backs I'd say Murray yeah but probably our best 10 12 13. 15 is best option too. Wings we could all argue. Everyone has different opinions

 

[Five Meters Out]

I don't think Payne did himself any favours yesterday. Was a serious liability under the high ball and I don't think he offered that much in attack. Plus he was gassed within the first 20, but to be fair to him he has just returned.

NO you're right the first time. No excuse necessary. Payne was an average Super rugby level player back in NZ. He was never going to be an All Black so left to seek his fortune elsewhere. Having said that, Payne was always solid and he suits Ireland just fine, because they play as a team, with huge spirit. The skill level of individual players doesn't really matter as much.

 

[westernforce]

NO you're right the first time. No excuse necessary. Payne was an average Super rugby level player back in NZ. He was never going to be an All Black so left to seek his fortune elsewhere. Having said that, Payne was always solid and he suits Ireland just fine, because they play as a team, with huge spirit. The skill level of individual players doesn't really matter as much.

clearly you haven't been watching kearney defend lately..Payne did well in defence. exactly what we needed against the english

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

clearly you haven't been watching kearney defend lately..Payne did well in defence. exactly what we needed against the english

Ah, Kearney wasn't the problem in defence this year, Paddy Jackson and his fellow back three players weren't as pretty. Kearney hasn't the passing or running game of Payne but Payne put us under more pressure on Saturday than Kearney ever did. The need to have more going forward than in defence should get Payne ahead.

Can't say I see where Toby is coming from, Payne had one outstanding break, put Earls away twice, with some good hands elsewhere while clearly not match fit.

 

[munstermuffin]

Ah, Kearney wasn't the problem in defence this year, Paddy Jackson and his fellow back three players weren't as pretty. Kearney hasn't the passing or running game of Payne but Payne put us under more pressure on Saturday than Kearney ever did. The need to have more going forward than in defence should get Payne ahead.

Can't say I see where Toby is coming from, Payne had one outstanding break, put Earls away twice, with some good hands elsewhere while clearly not match fit.

I'm not getting in 2 the debate much alpha but in his previous 2 games (vs France and Wales) Kearney missed 10 tackles. That is alot. I think to be fair Payne spilled 2 balls. Other than that I'd say he didn't put us under too much pressure. He's a better attacker and defender. And as you say it was a performance in a no where near match fit Payne.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I'm not getting in 2 the debate much alpha but in his previous 2 games (vs France and Wales) Kearney missed 10 tackles. That is alot. I think to be fair Payne spilled 2 balls. Other than that I'd say he didn't put us under too much pressure. He's a better attacker and defender. And as you say it was a performance in a no where near match fit Payne.

5 according to ESPN. I think his missed tackles on North and Williams were overstated too, thay was World Class positioning and they gained very few metres after bouncing off him. If we had a playmaker in the centres and wings doijg damage Kearney's kicking, catching and positioning would come in handy, we don't so Payne who is a lot better with ball.in hand and not much worse in defense is what we need.

 

[munstermuffin]

5 according to ESPN. I think his missed tackles on North and Williams were overstated too, thay was World Class positioning and they gained very few metres after bouncing off him. If we had a playmaker in the centres and wings doijg damage Kearney's kicking, catching and positioning would come in handy, we don't so Payne who is a lot better with ball.in hand and not much worse in defense is what we need.

Was just going by tv tonight. They said 10 over last 2 games. I agree he has good positional sense but don't think that is enough to put him ahead of Payne. Equally Payne is the better defender. The big worry is Payne isn't young either and there is no 15 really screaming out long term.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Was just going by tv tonight. They said 10 over last 2 games. I agree he has good positional sense but don't think that is enough to put him ahead of Payne. Equally Payne is the better defender. The big worry is Payne isn't young either and there is no 15 really screaming out long term.

Was that Against the Head? Joanne Cantwell also said England hadn't conceded a try in 27 games!

I wouldn't be bringing Kearney in for Payne, he's needed as a second playmaker.

 

[munstermuffin]

Was that Against the Head? Joanne Cantwell also said England hadn't conceded a try in 27 games!

I wouldn't be bringing Kearney in for Payne, he's needed as a second playmaker.

No the show on Eir Sport.

 

[ulsterman]

Payne is much better than Kearney these days, just needs to remain fit. I agree with your comments about a young full back though. Not sure who is coming through?

 

[Groundhog]

Oh oh Cian Kelleherrrrrr

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Joey Carbery doing the biz there but I want to see him at 10. Jordan Larmour's bandwagon is filling, I'm on it.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

I don't think Payne did himself any favours yesterday. Was a serious liability under the high ball and I don't think he offered that much in attack. Plus he was gassed within the first 20, but to be fair to him he has just returned.

I completely disagree. Under pressure he took all of his high balls? The two he dropped weren't under pressure, therefore obviously that was just due to rustiness. He just had a decent lay-off with 2 small appearance against two Italian teams. Hardly ideal to be thrown into a test match against England. He offered Ireland a huge amount in attack in my opinion, he took so much pressure off Sexton to create opportunities. Most of the time when he got the ball he fixed defenders, made ground and got good passes off. I'm not sure if you're only remembering the two mistakes and basing his performance off that?

 

[corny]

I agree. Heslip is not the player he was and with Munster's European and Pro12 form going into the championship, it should have been CJ at 8 and O'Mahony at 6. Sean O'Brien struggled in my opinion, dropping the ball a lot in the Welsh and England games. Van see Flier will surely take that place off him when he is fit? Henderson should always be in the starting 15; he plays well in a pretty poor Ulster team. Payne is quality; he just got injured at the wrong time but finished strong.

I'm seeing this revisionism a lot now. Heaslip had one bad game against Wales but in nearly every other game, since the season began actually, he's been stand out for club and country.

I'd pick POM, SOB, Stander myself but i shouldn't have to tell lies about Heaslip or any other option to make my case.

 

[munstermuffin]

I'm seeing this revisionism a lot now. Heaslip had one bad game against Wales but in nearly every other game, since the season began actually, he's been stand out for club and country.

I'd pick POM, SOB, Stander myself but i shouldn't have to tell lies about Heaslip or any other option to make my case.

To be fair I think alot of criticism on Ueaslip is more he's 33 now and we have younger options. I agree he is a superb athlete but think we do need to try build without him starting for year due to his age especially when there us options.
Like its 50/50 when you ask who people would rate better between him and Stander. In my eyes when it's that close Stander should be main starter on age alone. But that doesn't mean Heaslip is done. There will be games where you need the 8 to carry out wider and thatbis where Heaslip carries more.