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[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 5: Ireland vs England (18/03/2017)

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Funny reading player ratings done by different papers. All completely different. Only thing most outlets seem to agree on as concerns England is that Elliott Daly had a great game. I don't remember thinking anyone had a great game.

The thing that ****** me off just to think about is those terrible unforced knock-ons. Under no pressure whatsoever most of the time.
 
Funny reading player ratings done by different papers. All completely different. Only thing most outlets seem to agree on as concerns England is that Elliott Daly had a great game. I don't remember thinking anyone had a great game.

The thing that ****** me off just to think about is those terrible unforced knock-ons. Under no pressure whatsoever most of the time.

Well you should of joined the team then instead of complaining about it.
 
I feel really strange after that performance having watched it again, firstly it shows how little a lot of our rugby media (*coughs* *indo* *coughs*) know because, line out aside, all the "system failures" that "lost" us the game last week were just as evident, the difference was that we didn't **** our maul up, didn't have a 10 prone to defensive blunders and didn't get a yellow card... Game won, still not playing great stuff like the Autumn though.

The challenge now is winning with less tight margains, wing change is in order, Earls and Zebo simply don't have the speed or evasiveness for international rugby, a couple times Earls was given all the space you could dream of and did the bare minimum with it, Zebo should have gotten away after the charge down on Youngs too. Byrne, Sweetnam and ROL can do stuff with chances like that, let them.
Murray needs to pick up the pace when he's back, Marmion's tempo is why Ringrose finally got to showcase a little of what he can do, it added a wee bit of danger. Hopefully McGrath really kicks on, he has the tools to put pressure on Murray.
There is need for rotation, POM was a positive yesterday but there's times you're going to need Heaslip, the France match comes to mind, back in Leinster Schmidt regularly swapped Locky and Jenno depending on the opposition, bring this back.
Make Sexton captain, only man certain of a start who can do it, Best was great yesterday but those performances are becoming less and less frequent so while I'd still have him around the squad his days are numbered.
I was disappointed with the targeting of Sexton, not much of it was illegal but it's been tried over and over and it doesn't affect his game in the slightest, he was the best player on the park, so the incentive is to injure a fellow professional, there's nothing to be done about it but whinge like I am but I really don't like it and don't think its in "the spirit of the game" for lack of any term that isn't a cliché. I was happy to see PO'M get in Itoje's face and show that a Limerick man who brushes his teeth with tar and uses barbed wire instead of a sponge in the shower is an enforcer, not one of us Latin speaking, communal shower taking, soggy biscuit playing, earth shaking, love making, viagra taking E STREET BAND... Apologies, private school dwellers. (He went to Harrow ffs, I think that means he automatically loses every fight he gets into!) :p

From an England pov, you have a serious team but some bang average operators at the same time, Hartley, Haskell, Daly on the wing, Care, and dare I say Youngs, Ford and JJ against a well set defence, Robshaw will fix a lot, Kruis adds to your second row because you really need that but a few changes of faces will only help. From this 6 nations alone and due to bias based on man crushes on Farrell at 12 and Daly as well as not knowing your FB options I'd want to see Youngs, Ford, Farrell, Daly, Watson, Nowell, Brown. If you could get a playmaking 15 (Has Lozowski played much more there this season?) I'd quickly drop Ford and bring Te'o in too. The age profile and ruthless, wise, old **** stain you have coaching you will result in a stronger team year after year, trying to pry that trophy from your cold, dead hands won't be easy next year. Similar to us this 6n, you found out that you're not as good as you maybe thought but not a lot needs to be done to get there and even surpass it.

Sexton is playing the game a bit with them though. No one hit him especially hard or with malice yet he goes down in a heap prompting Best to look for an edge with the referee. England have their angle (pressure the half backs) and Ireland have theirs. The Murray V Glasgow saga is pretty much the same deal.

BTW pleased Sexton saw out the 6N's. The physio is constantly running on to him but i suspect he's no worse for wear than any of the others after a tough 6N's
 
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On England. Was doing bit of research today and I'd argue this is the best squad they've had since 2003. And I think this team is more armed than that squad. They're hitting all the right targets in the build for RWC
 
For anyone interested I can't link but on the42.ie Murray Kinsella gives an amazing analysis on Payne at 15. Again as I said he's so straight edge and a class act analyst.
 
I don't think Payne did himself any favours yesterday. Was a serious liability under the high ball and I don't think he offered that much in attack. Plus he was gassed within the first 20, but to be fair to him he has just returned.
 
I don't think Payne did himself any favours yesterday. Was a serious liability under the high ball and I don't think he offered that much in attack. Plus he was gassed within the first 20, but to be fair to him he has just returned.

He dropped 2 but was good in attack. Offloaded out of tackle. He was gassed after 20. Only 2 games vs Italians isn't ideal. Especially when 1 is 13 and 1 is 15.
I thought he did play the role well outside 2 dropped balls. Kinsella highlighted it well
 
England's attack seemed to play into Irish hands, not enough options to go with the flat attack. The two layer system might have helped so there was the threat of Farrell going wide or Ford distributing to tight runners. A couple of more physical players in the backline would have helped too, and I suspect Te'o is going to become a starter soon. 12 seems the more obvious position given there are two good options at 13, and then perhaps Josephh/Daly's distribution can be used more.

Agreed Kinsella is great.
 
On England. Was doing bit of research today and I'd argue this is the best squad they've had since 2003. And I think this team is more armed than that squad. They're hitting all the right targets in the build for RWC
I'd agree that this is the best squad since 2003, but I don't see it as yet the equal of that side. I can't see the back row equalling Hill, Back and Dalaglio, and they don't have a wizard like Jason Robinson. Second row? Can't see Ben Kay getting a look in with this side, but Martin Johnson I'm sure would. Stand-off? I'd take Jonny Wilkinson over Ford, not because he was a more imaginative player, but his defence and kicking game were better, and he fitted to overall team game plan to a T. Full back? Josh Lewsey v Mike Brown? No contest. Will Greenwood and Jonathon Joseph – pretty well matched as finishers, but I would see Greenwood as the better distributer. Tindall v Farrell – comparing apples and pears, totally different players and both very good of their type. Front row? Props, to my mind pretty even, but Hartley v Thompson?
Mike

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Of course there is one problem with the comparison - all the 2003 crop are now so old!
Mike
 
I'd agree that this is the best squad since 2003, but I don't see it as yet the equal of that side. I can't see the back row equalling Hill, Back and Dalaglio, and they don't have a wizard like Jason Robinson. Second row? Can't see Ben Kay getting a look in with this side, but Martin Johnson I'm sure would. Stand-off? I'd take Jonny Wilkinson over Ford, not because he was a more imaginative player, but his defence and kicking game were better, and he fitted to overall team game plan to a T. Full back? Josh Lewsey v Mike Brown? No contest. Will Greenwood and Jonathon Joseph – pretty well matched as finishers, but I would see Greenwood as the better distributer. Tindall v Farrell – comparing apples and pears, totally different players and both very good of their type. Front row? Props, to my mind pretty even, but Hartley v Thompson?
Mike
Guscott (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39249287) did a article for the BBC on it reality is in most positions you'd pick the 2003 player with a couple of exceptions some marginal (Cohen, Kay, Woodman, Tindall) would you take over the current starting incumbent. They have Kay Vs Lawes there but when I say I'd drop him I'd have Launchers, Kruis or Itoje.
 
True individually they 2003 team have better guys but just the journey of teams is similar and building nicely. FWIW
Of 03 team
I think front rows are even
Locks are maybe just shaded by 2017
Backrow of 2003 was 1 of smartest ever.
9 and 10 easily 2003
Centre I'd go for 2003 and well backrow.
Cohen was good. Lewsey and Robinson are 2 of my favourite players of all time so easy know I'd go for them.

But I just think journey is similar
 
Yes - the journey is, as you say, similar - and even the 2003 side had their downs as well as their ups - like losing out on a Grand Slam by being beaten in Dublin (sound familiar?)
Mike
Oh, and whilst I think that Martin Johnson would have got into just about any team, any time, I agree that he and Kay as a combination would rate below almost any combination of the current four front runners for lock places.
 
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I'd agree that this is the best squad since 2003, but I don't see it as yet the equal of that side. I can't see the back row equalling Hill, Back and Dalaglio, and they don't have a wizard like Jason Robinson. Second row? Can't see Ben Kay getting a look in with this side, but Martin Johnson I'm sure would. Stand-off? I'd take Jonny Wilkinson over Ford, not because he was a more imaginative player, but his defence and kicking game were better, and he fitted to overall team game plan to a T. Full back? Josh Lewsey v Mike Brown? No contest. Will Greenwood and Jonathon Joseph – pretty well matched as finishers, but I would see Greenwood as the better distributer. Tindall v Farrell – comparing apples and pears, totally different players and both very good of their type. Front row? Props, to my mind pretty even, but Hartley v Thompson?
Mike

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Of course there is one problem with the comparison - all the 2003 crop are now so old!
Mike

Ben Kay would have walked into todays side as would most of that pack. The 2003 team was far better than this one but the current team has 2 years to get it right.

Wish we had a captain like Jonno again.....
 
Can't think of a single unit where I'd go for the current team.

Maybe Farrell and Joseph over Catt and Greenwood who started the 03 semi or Greenwood / Tindall in the final, but otherwise I don't even think it's close. But 03 was a highly experienced team at / past its peak who'd beaten the ABs on their own patch. Current lot are a work in progress.

Vickery, maybe Thompson, Johnno, the back row, Wilkinson and Robinson were arguably all the best in the world in their positions at various times. Not got many of those at the moment.

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Oh, and whilst I think that Martin Johnson would have got into just about any team, any time, I agree that he and Kay as a combination would rate below almost any combination of the current four front runners for lock places.

No, just no. Kay was more of a technical player who complemented Johnno perfectly. For his leadership Johnno was streets above any of the current contenders. And don't forget that Kay was picked above high calibre rivals in Shaw and Grewcock.
 
My thoughts, for what they are worth:
England are a very good team, but beatable.
Ireland are a good team, principally when they are at home.
Both teams did not play as well as they could. However, Ireland's rush defence and performance at the breakdown was excellent, starving England's backs of the ball and causing England to give away quite a few penalties (Itoje in this Championship has given away quite a few to be fair).
Ireland need to play like this far more regularly than they have been.
England need to not kick away the ball considering they had so little of it.
Ultimately, I don't think this will have done anyone's Lion's chances any harm, except for Ford and Brown.
 
why did we leave it so late to try something different or new..joe is a great coach but he doesnt back his 23 players..POM and payne should have been in the team after the scottish game..i know payne had a slight injury concern..henderson is our best all rounder at lock..a complete athlete.
 
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