[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 4: England vs Scotland (12/03/2017)

[mustardcharlie]

Should be a cracker of a game, few trys for the scots and I'll be reasonably happy. The impact of englands bench is gonna play massive part of this game.

As some have implied/suggested, both starting line ups seem quite evenly matched, England have perhaps the edge in the forwards, Scotland in the backs. The real difference for me is in the strength of the relative benches, where most people would favour England's bench. Few would complain if any of the England bench started. OK, Wood is not popular and hasn't been playing well

 

[brokenoses]

Seen the ej press video, says if faz is injured ( by falling over Eddie's dog) teo at 12 so ford teo jj is tjat loz on the bench? Good 10 but not yet great, Or slade? Plays 10 for chiefs and does it well but untested 10 at this level but plays the right way that england want. who else is there if faz cant play

If Farrell is crocked (by the sounds of things, he should be fine by Saturday) surely Slade will get called up over Lozowski. He has trained with the team most of the way through, knows the plays and can step right in. A backline with Ford and Slade at 10 and 12 would be a nightmare to defend against. I'd like variations of Ford, Faz and Slade at 10 and 12 to be the future, but for this weekend, hopefully Farrell will pull through fine. The worst case would be for him to play with a dodgy leg and not be able to give 100%.

 

[Scotty]

What would we do if faz wasnt available after his trainong injury today? As far as i know he is a doubt unless something else has come up

 

[CaledonCol]

Scotland lack world class front row players,also with nel and Alistair Dickinson both inured the front rowers are really inexperienced, England have 2 sets of them, as well as the impact forwards on the bench,
as for the backs, I think Scotland win that battle hands down unfortunately if you don't have any front foot ball it doesn't matter how good your backs are

Would beg to differ. Vern has gone for the Glasgow front row who have just come through the hard school of the Champions Cup including double games Racing and Leicester. Reid is no beginner and hooker Brown is tough and mobile ( used to play back row ) Fargerson is only 21 but one for the future . With the Gray boys behind them it looks aa solid scrum .

 

[kingy1]

Farrell is fine to play on sat

 

[welshoptimist]

Would beg to differ. Vern has gone for the Glasgow front row who have just come through the hard school of the Champions Cup including double games Racing and Leicester. Reid is no beginner and hooker Brown is tough and mobile ( used to play back row ) Fargerson is only 21 but one for the future . With the Gray boys behind them it looks aa solid scrum .

reid was out the 1st game and sorely missed , brown is a good open field player and ford is a good scrummager as replacement, fagerson has come on leaps and bounds but you go to the bench and there is very little, as for the 2nd row, grey is better than itoje in my opinion but ill probably get my head bitten off for that

 

[RedruthRFC]

It was on Oddschecker at 11/1 this morning its now 25/4

Either a palp on their part or (more likely given that the odds are the same) you were looking at the outright price, not the match odds. The price has fluctuated (4/1 yesterday, 9/2 today), but has been roughly the same since I checked over a week ago.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think Scotland at 11/1 for the tournament is all that generous if I'm reading that lovely table at the top of the thread right (thanks to whoever does that). Failure to get a losing bonus point in France or a winning one against Wales is fatal.

Basically, unless Wales beat Ireland AND England lose and fail to get a losing BP on Saturday then there is no way Scotland can go into the final weekend with the championship in their hands. They'd be relying on the Ireland vs England result.

You're quite right, there were indeed scenarios I wasn't considering. That'll learn me to post off the top of my head, without doing my homework!

- - - Updated - - -

Would beg to differ. Vern has gone for the Glasgow front row who have just come through the hard school of the Champions Cup including double games Racing and Leicester. Reid is no beginner and hooker Brown is tough and mobile ( used to play back row ) Fargerson is only 21 but one for the future . With the Gray boys behind them it looks aa solid scrum .

Being capable at Champions Cup level <> World Class. Also calling Fagerson "one for the future" implies that he's not there yet.

I haven't seen enough of them play to make a judgement, although abiding memory is of the Irish front row really showing them up, but maybe this is as much a function of Ireland's strength as Scotland's weakness (as an England supporter, I fear the former), just pointing out that nothing you have said suggests that any of them are world class.

 

[nh206]

grey is better than itoje in my opinion but ill probably get my head bitten off for that

Which one? Ha. To me they are quite different players, Itoje doesn't seem to do the hard carries they do but probably competes more for the ball at the breakdown. Lineout competition will be interesting between them certainly.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Which one? Ha. To me they are quite different players, Itoje doesn't seem to do the hard carries they do but probably competes more for the ball at the breakdown. Lineout competition will be interesting between them certainly.

Agreed. There's more similarity between Jonny and Maro IMO. There are less intangibles to ponder at second row than any other position IMO, so plain stats could be illuminating, although it's apples and orages in this instance with Itoje playing 6ish.

 

[MarkyH]

Usual Ford criticism ********.

Sam Davies is better because he has incredible potential (they are the same age)
Finn Russel is better because Glasgow play some good rugby.
Biggar is better cause he's a great defender and good under the high ball.

Ford isn't world class but he is an absolute class player, great hands, lovely pass and great vision. Yes he's targeted for his defence but that is what it is, he doesn't shirk his responsibilities. He has room to improve and is part of a team, and a partnership with Farrell that has won 17 games on the bounce.

Joseph criticism is harsh to. He hasn't cut loose but in tight battles against the French and Welsh he was fantastic in defence. Done F all wrong.

I wouldn't say Scotland have the best backline 'HANDS DOWN' compared to England. Hogg is clearly better than Brown. I think at the moment they are equal, but I like the balance England have, and the options we have to move Daly to OC, or bring TEO in to carry.

We all seem to be guilty of writing players off after a bad game, or hyping them up after a good game. Class, and ability is proven over a period of time. Simple.

 

[nh206]

Joseph criticism is harsh to. He hasn't cut loose but in tight battles against the French and Welsh he was fantastic in defence. Done F all wrong.

I think I may have been a bit harsh. I stand by the fact that he butchered a couple of overlaps by the poor passing, but I still rate him very highly. He just hasn't quite hit the heights of last season, which to be fair could be said of the whole team so far in this competition.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Which one? Ha. To me they are quite different players, Itoje doesn't seem to do the hard carries they do but probably competes more for the ball at the breakdown. Lineout competition will be interesting between them certainly.

Grey is actually a poor carrier. He has made 17m off 36 carries whilst Itoje has made 45m off 25 carries. 0.47 m per carry for Grey to 1.8m per carry for Itoje

I think I may have been a bit harsh. I stand by the fact that he butchered a couple of overlaps by the poor passing, but I still rate him very highly. He just hasn't quite hit the heights of last season, which to be fair could be said of the whole team so far in this competition.

JJ had some bad passes but he has proven in the past he can throw some great passes unlike some other centres who never do anything but bad passes (or don't pass at all ahem Jonathan Davies)

 

[MarkyH]

I think I may have been a bit harsh. I stand by the fact that he butchered a couple of overlaps by the poor passing, but I still rate him very highly. He just hasn't quite hit the heights of last season, which to be fair could be said of the whole team so far in this competition.

Joseph, for what I've seen for England is normally pretty good in his distribution. Brown on the other hand

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Have to say I don't quite get the anti-Brownness on here. Yep, he's past his best and yep we need to be looking at a replacement. But I think he's been fine so far this tournament. Has gone forwards fairly reliably, got us into a try scoring position on at least one occasion...he had a really terrible patch for England not long ago but I think he's out of that. He's obviously not the future, for sure.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Joseph, for what I've seen for England is normally pretty good in his distribution. Brown on the other hand

Pretty much confirms my suspicion that this is the usual angry Bath supporter response to criticism of any Bath players. Not saying that I don't necessarily agree, but it's so vehement that it's lost credibility.

 

[MarkyH]

Pretty much confirms my suspicion that this is the usual angry Bath supporter response to criticism of any Bath players. Not saying that I don't necessarily agree, but it's so vehement that it's lost credibility.

Haha! I don't support Bath at all! I've only been once and wasn't impressed (Rugby shindig, years ago. Crap spread, average ale) Hate Stuart Barnes too.

Fwiw I'm a support of National League ones finest, and most average team Coventry RFC. Haven't bought into Wasps (nothing against them) but I love my local club. Don't support any Prem team.

I also don't hate on Brown. Just his vision is very blinkered at times.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Grey is actually a poor carrier. He has made 17m off 36 carries whilst Itoje has made 45m off 25 carries. 0.47 m per carry for Grey to 1.8m per carry for Itoje

Again, which Grey? Quite a disparity, but as noted, it's a bit of an apples an oranges comparison given that Grey's carries will have been tighter in with less opportunity to break or burst through a gap. Also, over a small sample size like this, these stats are easily skewed by a break (although I don't recall Itoje making a significant one).

Maybe he's added a bit of timber, but Richie Gray doesn't strike me as the same carrying threat as when he emerged as an international, all arms and legs breaking tackles for significant distance carries. Maybe Scotland are happy him making a high number of carries in the tight rather than playing in wider channels.

 

[ncurd]

Have to say I don't quite get the anti-Brownness on here. Yep, he's past his best and yep we need to be looking at a replacement. But I think he's been fine so far this tournament. Has gone forwards fairly reliably, got us into a try scoring position on at least one occasion...he had a really terrible patch for England not long ago but I think he's out of that. He's obviously not the future, for sure.

Have to disagree brown was fine in the last match but the entire backline didn't have much to show for themselves because forwards clearly didn't have bloody clue. however despite the odd moment I feel like a lot of our attacks die when Brown has the ball either by not distributing the ball or just because the ball doesn't recycle quick enough (I'm not utterly blaming him for that but I do wonder about his presentation of the ball as it seams consistent but he's hardly isolated when it occurs). Also I don't feel he breaks the line as often as I'd like or he's that quick.

I know that all seams overly harsh but when you have players like Watson on the bench who play fullback regularly and are better than Brown I'm baffled to why we keep persisting with him for 80 mins. When was the last time you'd rate Brown higher than 7/10 I think we're getting on to 3-4 years.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Again, which Grey? Quite a disparity, but as noted, it's a bit of an apples an oranges comparison given that Grey's carries will have been tighter in with less opportunity to break or burst through a gap. Also, over a small sample size like this, these stats are easily skewed by a break (although I don't recall Itoje making a significant one).

Maybe he's added a bit of timber, but Richie Gray doesn't strike me as the same carrying threat as when he emerged as an international, all arms and legs breaking tackles for significant distance carries. Maybe Scotland are happy him making a high number of carries in the tight rather than playing in wider channels.

Johnny Grey and I disagree, In the France game alone Itoje made 12m from carries, almost as much as Johnny Grey has managed over 3 games and I don't think you can say the English pack were exactly on the front foot that game. In fact you will struggle to find forwards with worse carrying stats than grey except in the front row... When I can be bothered I might make a spreadsheet to show this.

 

[Scotty]

I know that all seams overly harsh but when you have players like Watson on the bench who play fullback regularly and are better than Brown I'm baffled to why we keep persisting with him for 80 mins. When was the last time you'd rate Brown higher than 7/10 I think we're getting on to 3-4 years.

I agree brown needs to go, but maybe that should be against Argentina later in the year. The prob with getting rid of brown now is he is solid and proven, never passes and needs to go but right now solid under highballs and with hoggs attack we need solid player back there. Players that play FB:
Watson
Daly
Nowell
Haley
Jason woodward? Has potential from what ive seen but i havnt seen alot.

So who's it going to be?