[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 4: England vs Scotland (12/03/2017)

[Scotty]

I think this has the potential to be an absolutely brilliant match. The Scotland back line has looked very threatening whenever they've got the ball but particularly when the game gets a bit more open. For me they have been the most clinical side this tournament at taking their opportunities.

It's interesting that Eddie's gone for Marler over Mako, I guess Marler might edge it on the up front stuff in his eyes. I can see this being pretty key as England will want to dominate the front 5 early on. If they opt for an open game then Scotland definitely have the players to punish us. Most of the bench players (bar Tom Wood), I would say are all better ball carriers than their starting counterparts so this will be great to see if we really have dominated the front 5 early on.

How are the Scotland front row rated? They're not players I have seen a lot of.

I feel like England should win if they turn up on time.

Marler over mako is quite simple i think, EJ wants billy and mako playing together same when itoje and kruis are both fit they play together and play well cos of time together at sarries. Will make such am impact

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I think Bruce_ma_goose was suggesting ours (Englands) 9-15 was the strongest in the competition. Presuming he is Scottish, and by theirs he means England and not Scotland.

Apologies for the confusion. I'd like to blame it on overdosing on lemsip but don't think I can. And no, I was referring to the Scottish 9-15 as being the best unit. I don't rate the English back's ability to run incisive passing movements in situations where they don't have dominance up front. Individually they are outstanding athletes but Jamie Joseph for example, or the lad Watson seem quite limited in terms of making a telling pass at the right moment under pressure. I see a lot of upward potential in Englands back play (worryingly for everyone else) and think Jones will get them there.

There are lots of flaws in the Scottish backs (e.g. Dunbar's kicking last week!) but I just think they get the least quality ball to work with in the tournament (other than Italy, and possibly Wales) but have a higher conversion rate for that quick ball in the opponents half when they do get it. Just a personal perspective and not dissing anyone else's team.

 

[Scotty]

No disrespect to scotland at all they are a strong team who earned so good wins but this england team is finally getting players back. At the start we didnt have mako hask billy kruis robshaw, who were all worthy of starting and losing some of that power(mako/billy) tackling(hask) and workrate (robshaw/kruis) is why we have had a slow start to the 6N, our depth is amazing but thats what some are second/third choices filling in or playing out of position and we expect the same fireworks as the team that beat aus 4 times.

That bench should come on at 50 min mark latest(except wood) and i think england will be too much for the scots in the last 30, backs bench bring on at 60 to changw the game again once they get used to dealing woth fresh power from the fwds bench.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

How are the Scotland front row rated? They're not players I have seen a lot of.
.

I'm no expert, but the starting three are the ones I'd pick. The Scottish scrum has held up well in recent months despite losing Nel. Largely down to the lad Fagerson. 20 or 21 years old and he has held his end up against Georgian and French packs. After a rough international start Fraser Brown has become adequate at the lineout. Don't expect any razzle dazzle from these guys though!

Not so sure about the reserve front three though either. There'll be quite a gulf in the packs in the last quarter.

 

[ALJ]

Can't quite agree with this - I think a home game against a strong but far from finished Scotland side, in a pretty settled and confident England side, is a perfectly safe opportunity for him. The polar opposite of this would be getting your very first cap away from home, e.g away to Ireland , in a big pressure game where your team has little form going into it.

I think either Clifford is good enough or he's not.

I see your point but for me, he would have had to have put his hand up and almost force Jones' hand.

He had a very good chance against Wales - we pretty much dominated in the first half yet he was nowhere, we were under the cosh for most of the second half and he was nowhere.
It wasn't that he was dominated by a stronger side, he just wasn't in it at all - maybe it was nerves, who knows.

But it seems pretty clear his performance in that game is what's caused his relegation down the pecking order and so he has to rebuild the coach's trust - the games remaining in the 6N while we chase a GS are not the place to do that IMHO, Argentina probably is.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Apologies for the confusion. I'd like to blame it on overdosing on lemsip but don't think I can. And no, I was referring to the Scottish 9-15 as being the best unit. I don't rate the English back's ability to run incisive passing movements in situations where they don't have dominance up front. Individually they are outstanding athletes but Jamie Joseph for example, or the lad Watson seem quite limited in terms of making a telling pass at the right moment under pressure. I see a lot of upward potential in Englands back play (worryingly for everyone else) and think Jones will get them there.

There are lots of flaws in the Scottish backs (e.g. Dunbar's kicking last week!) but I just think they get the least quality ball to work with in the tournament (other than Italy, and possibly Wales) but have a higher conversion rate for that quick ball in the opponents half when they do get it. Just a personal perspective and not dissing anyone else's team.

With the exception of Stuart Hogg, I don't think in individual terms Scotland have anything we don't. But yes, it's how they play as a unit. England at times off set plays have looked as though they're each on a different page. It's worrying because it's certainly a backward step. However I think it's simplifying to say that the Scottish attack is excellent - as far as I've seen much of their best play has been off counter-attack, orchestrated by Hogg. Fin Russell is running things very well but I don't think in their set-piece backs moves or normal phase attack England should be too scared - they're not at that level yet.

I see your point but for me, he would have had to have put his hand up and almost force Jones' hand.

He had a very good chance against Wales - we pretty much dominated in the first half yet he was nowhere, we were under the cosh for most of the second half and he was nowhere.
It wasn't that he was dominated by a stronger side, he just wasn't in it at all - maybe it was nerves, who knows.

But it seems pretty clear his performance in that game is what's caused his relegation down the pecking order and so he has to rebuild the coach's trust - the games remaining in the 6N while we chase a GS are not the place to do that IMHO, Argentina probably is.

To be clear I'm not saying Clifford definitely should start, because I agree he was anonymous in a few games, I just mean that the decision should be based on an assessment of how good he is right now rather than on the basis of this occasion.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I think I'd take Russell over Ford, Seymour over Daly and Hogg over Brown in a composite backline. Neither side have anything special at 9 but I think Farrell, Joseph and Nowell will prove a big difference in this match, they're probably the three most intelligent players on the pitch.

 

[welshoptimist]

Scotland lack world class front row players,also with nel and Alistair Dickinson both inured the front rowers are really inexperienced, England have 2 sets of them, as well as the impact forwards on the bench,
as for the backs, I think Scotland win that battle hands down unfortunately if you don't have any front foot ball it doesn't matter how good your backs are

 

[tsof]

Farrell's a doubt having gone down in training with a leg injury. Spent a fair bit of time with the physios and pulled out of the session. Hopefully nothing serious.

 

[ncurd]

Usual underestimation of Ford's ability.

Lets put it this way if (and it a big IF) England win the upfront battle and Youngs had one of those games where he actually remembers he can pass reasonable well. England will win comfortably, Ford's ability to unlock defences when he has front foot ball is second to none at that point I don't think it matters how good Scotland's backline is they'll have to be momnumental in defence to stop what our is capable of in that situation.

England have won the last three behind a misfiring pack (not a beaten one) and I'm confident England will win even then. Scotland have to win comprehensively upfront to win this game I think anything else won't be good enough.

I'd take Hogg over Brown but then I'd take our 23, 14 & 11 over Brown as well.

9's if Youngs plays to his top-end ability he's better, he just onl does so 3-4 times a year.

Either way Scotland in my mind need to be winning by more than a score by the time he English finishers come on (barring Wood) infact this is how I imagine Jones as about 60 minuite mark.

In other words,

Hartley -> George
Marler-> M. Vunipola
Cole -> Sinckler
Hughes -> B. Vunipola
Brown (more likely Daly ) -> Watson

Te'O may also get a look in for Joseph depending on how Jospeh has gone but I suspect that'll be more the 70 min mark.

 

[welshoptimist]

true but every time ford gets tackled he looks like one of those kids form the water aid adverts XD

 

[Scotty]

Farrell's a doubt having gone down in training with a leg injury. Spent a fair bit of time with the physios and pulled out of the session. Hopefully nothing serious.

Seen the ej press video, says if faz is injured ( by falling over Eddie's dog) teo at 12 so ford teo jj is tjat loz on the bench? Good 10 but not yet great, Or slade? Plays 10 for chiefs and does it well but untested 10 at this level but plays the right way that england want. who else is there if faz cant play

 

[Billyboybilly]

Billy Vunipola killed us at the weekend and he is not 100%. It will be hard for the Scots when the finishers come on. Should be a cracking match.

 

[welshoptimist]

I think its going to be awesome I seriously hope England don't win though, sorry English guys but dallaglio used up all your smug points single handed when you won the world cup XD

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

It's amazing to me how quickly people have come to say Scotland have the best backline, where before the tournament most people wrote them off. Can't we just slow down a bit?

Whatever concerns you can have about Ford, and I have some, they're not about attack. Ford has at least as much to offer going forward as Fin Russell.
I think Daly is just about the most talented back in the championship but a winger he is not.
Jonathan Joseph has spent most of the last 2 years regarded as the best 13 in the home nations; the only two games he's had this tournament have been extremely tight affairs where his defence has been excellent. I'm hoping he can show a bit more on Saturday.

 

[kingy1]

Should be a cracker of a game, few trys for the scots and I'll be reasonably happy. The impact of englands bench is gonna play massive part of this game.

 

[welshoptimist]

It's amazing to me how quickly people have come to say Scotland have the best backline, where before the tournament most people wrote them off. Can't we just slow down a bit?

Whatever concerns you can have about Ford, and I have some, they're not about attack. Ford has at least as much to offer going forward as Fin Russell.
I think Daly is just about the most talented back in the championship but a winger he is not.
Jonathan Joseph has spent most of the last 2 years regarded as the best 13 in the home nations; the only two games he's had this tournament have been extremely tight affairs where his defence has been excellent. I'm hoping he can show a bit more on Saturday.

its not a recent thing Scotland have had the best backline for some time now, its just until now the forward pack was so poor they could never get a foothold in a game, the last few years Glasgow have been a joy to watch , daly is exceptional, looks superhuman at the moment, but so has Seymour, its going to be a great match

 

[nh206]

It's amazing to me how quickly people have come to say Scotland have the best backline, where before the tournament most people wrote them off. Can't we just slow down a bit?

Whatever concerns you can have about Ford, and I have some, they're not about attack. Ford has at least as much to offer going forward as Fin Russell.
I think Daly is just about the most talented back in the championship but a winger he is not.
Jonathan Joseph has spent most of the last 2 years regarded as the best 13 in the home nations; the only two games he's had this tournament have been extremely tight affairs where his defence has been excellent. I'm hoping he can show a bit more on Saturday.

Behind a dominant pack I think Ford would be my pick of the fly halves personally. He will always be targeted in defence but for the most part he does make a tackle, just gives up yards. That's not exactly unusual for a 10 but when some other 10s make the big hits that accentuates the difference. I think the good things he does are often more subtle as well. Giving the outside player an extra half second isn't perceptible for the views but more time for them should result in more breaks.

I thought JJ had a bit of a shaky start. His defence was fantastic but there a few overlap opportunities which he killed with poor passing. I'm hoping he can show more here as well.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Usual underestimation of Ford's ability.

Lets put it this way if (and it a big IF) England win the upfront battle and Youngs had one of those games where he actually remembers he can pass reasonable well. England will win comfortably, Ford's ability to unlock defences when he has front foot ball is second to none at that point I don't think it matters how good Scotland's backline is they'll have to be momnumental in defence to stop what our is capable of in that situation.

I have no doubt Ford has bags of ability but from what I've seen he needs perfect conditions that you described to use it. With a dominant pack, good service and another playmaker at 12 its genuinely difficult to look bad. If you could guarantee me that in Ireland I'd be tempted to pick Carbery ahead of Sexton because he is ever so slightly quicker at getting the ball to his centres than Sexton, is up there with Beauden Barrett in terms of running with the ball and can unlock defences through the middle a lot better because of it, but Sexton is a different league in reality due to the way he can manipulate a game in his sides favour without a whole lot of help. I've seen that once from Ford and it was off the bench against Aus when he could study the game and went on with instructions. Whenever England have struggled in their winning streak it has been due to an inability to adapt the gameplan quick enough in tricky situations, the blame goes on the captain and 10 when that happens in my opinion. Bags of ability, arguably more than anyone in the world, but until he gets the right mentality and a bit of the dog in him Ford will trail the likes of Sexton and Barrett by some distance and Russell too right now, who apart from a 2nd half howler in Paris has been very good for Scotland without really putting a foot wrong without everything going his way.

I think he'll get close to perfect conditions against Scotland for what its worth.

Edit: The only things I think might stop Ford being the best 10 in Europe are his physicality and potentially Joey Carbery. (I've watched a lot of him in the last week after Snoop pointed out a few things and have taken a complete u-turn) after three years' of international rugby Sexton was much the same, he was doing a lot more at club level though, it was only in 2013 that he started to regularly make a positive impact in every game regardless of what the pack was doing and he was 27 rather than 23-24. Ford doesn't have a guy like Schmidt to work with week in week out so it'll likely take longer but it should come.

 

[kingy1]

Farrels going to be fit for sat after his injury scare, scotland could have done with that.