[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 1: Scotland vs. Ireland (04/02/2017)

[Leonormous Boozer]

Moore is a better player than Ryan and is a regular starter and performer in a team lying top of the Premiership and in the European QF's, I don't see much competition there despite how good Ryan has been.

As for Madigan not establishing himself, again he's been available for four weeks behind a guy in impressive form after a reasonably long injury lay off, does it matter? Keatley has only ever established himself in dog **** Munster and Connacht teams and its not as if we're asking Madigan to be a starter until the next world cup, its simply getting him to bench when our 1st and 3rd choice are unavailable (read as crisis). I don't think Madigan is a top class 10 but he's a guy who's comfortable playing international rugby and is a good European option who didn't look at all out of place opposite PJ a matter of weeks ago, Keatley is a 10 who proved in the previous two seasons that at his best he can look good in the pro 12 and isn't a European standard 10. So why are the IRFU hindering us when there is now a reasonable chance of a pro12 standard 10 playing against Scotland, facing one of Europe's form 10's, when we could have a better 10 with 25 more caps who has absolutely learnt that moving to France will stop him playing for Ireland apart from exceptional circumstances which we are now in. There's an argument to be made that bringing in Madigan would make more sense than bringing Sexton in three years ago when we had Jackson and Madigan ready to fill in.

 

[munstermuffin]

Like Snoop says there I'm 100% in agreement.
You may think Moore is twice player of others but equally Ryan has been performing superbly against top players in Europe as has Bealham. And while you think Moore is better alot would disagree and say other 2 are better.

On Madigan has he ever been a top 10. Again you think Madigan is a top 10. But alot think different. Sexton is world class Madigan is nowhere near. IRFU isn't hindering anything. Madigan knew deal and took it so thats it.

 

[Amiga500]

but I'd wager that looking at both players careers and form this year Isa would tempt mamy an Ulster fan.

You'd lose the shirt on your back - I can't imagine anyone willingly making that swap. Piatau has limits, at times severe limits - his passing and kicking can be very ropey - but his ability to turn a game virtually single handedly is keeping our heads above water this season.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Moore is a better player than Ryan and is a regular starter and performer in a team lying top of the Premiership and in the European QF's, I don't see much competition there despite how good Ryan has been.

I don't think Madigan is a top class 10 but he's a guy who's comfortable playing international rugby and is a good European option who didn't look at all out of place opposite PJ a matter of weeks ago, Keatley is a 10 who proved in the previous two seasons that at his best he can look good in the pro 12 and isn't a European standard 10.

Like Snoop says there I'm 100% in agreement.
You may think Moore is twice player of others but equally Ryan has been performing superbly against top players in Europe as has Bealham. And while you think Moore is better alot would disagree and say other 2 are better.

On Madigan has he ever been a top 10. Again you think Madigan is a top 10. But alot think different. Sexton is world class Madigan is nowhere near. IRFU isn't hindering anything. Madigan knew deal and took it so thats it.

Snoop and I are in complete agreement in relation to Moore, notice how Snoop called neither better players.

Putting words in my mouth there... Madigan is not a top class 10, Keatley and Scannell (and Byrne and Carty) however are so far off international standard, Madigan and his 31 caps is not, that this should be seen as exceptional circumstances to bring the guy in, I think the only thing stopping him is the fact we're playing Scotland and Italy in the next two weeks and Carbery and Sexton should be back soon. If we lose at the weekend because some sub standard guy has to play a significant amount of minutes in a close game it won't matter a ****e though.
@Amiga500 Isa has been at that in international windows since 2009 and was at it for most of last season!

 

[munstermuffin]

Snoop and I are in complete agreement in relation to Moore, notice how Snoop called neither better players.

Putting words in my mouth there... Madigan is not a top class 10, Keatley and Scannell (and Byrne and Carty) however are so far off international standard, Madigan and his 31 caps is not, that this should be seen as exceptional circumstances to bring the guy in, I think the only thing stopping him is the fact we're playing Scotland and Italy in the next two weeks and Carbery and Sexton should be back soon. If we lose at the weekend because some sub standard guy has to play a significant amount of minutes in a close game it won't matter a ****e though.
@Amiga500 Isa has been at that in international windows since 2009 and was at it for most of last season!

On current form I think other 2 are better. But So your agreeing Moore shouldn't be considered yes? As Snoop said and I agreed.

And no I'm not saying you said Madigan a top 10. I'm saying he's not good enough to be told you leave and you won't be considered for Ireland as much. I wouldn't say he'd make much more of a difference than Keatley Byrne Carty or whoever.
Now you think he will and you rate him that good. Fair enough.
But simply he was told what he was told and left. Again no issues. IRFU obviously think he is not worth it either

 

[munstermuffin]

It's also noted we had an issue at 9 before and never called Reddan despite being form 9 in Europe.

Facts are players come home because they want to play for Ireland. It's the reason JJ Farrell and Hart will return. Why Cullen Jennings and Reddan did so.

Don't see what issue is like lads know the story going

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

On current form I think other 2 are better. But So your agreeing Moore shouldn't be considered yes? As Snoop said and I agreed.

Yes

The other notable example is Marty Moore losing out on a squad place to a player who isn't as good as him, that's not detrimental to our chances of winning a test match though so its fine

And no I'm not saying you said Madigan a top 10. I'm saying he's not good enough to be told you leave and you won't be considered for Ireland as much. I wouldn't say he'd make much more of a difference than Keatley Byrne Carty or whoever.
Now you think he will and you rate him that good. Fair enough.
But simply he was told what he was told and left. Again no issues. IRFU obviously think he is not worth it either

My issue is with the IRFU's stance when we're in a bit of an emergency. Anyway, all that can be said has been said but if we lose on Saturday and Keatley or Scannell end up playing a lot of minutes I'll be fing and blinding the IRFU for their stubbornness.

 

[munstermuffin]

Yes


My issue is with the IRFU's stance when we're in a bit of an emergency. Anyway, all that can be said has been said but if we lose on Saturday and Keatley or Scannell end up playing a lot of minutes I'll be fing and blinding the IRFU for their stubbornness.

But there is issue. You are convinced Madigan improves us. There's alot who will agree but equally alot who will disagree. Like if Keatley or Scannell came on alot would say Madigan would have done no better or worst. Not enough to break rules.
Like you say it's emergencyin your eyrs others say we are simply missing a 10 who's spending more time on treatment than field lately.

Also on THP I'd also say if Furlong gets injured Moore won't be called either

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Moore is a quality player. He's an okay scrummager and excellent defender who's brilliant over a ball at winning penalties. Bealham is an okay scrummager, explosive defender and has excellent hands. Ryan is a Mike Ross clone who'll lock a scrum but won't do much beyond that. I'd have all three on a similar level, it just depends on what you prefer in a tighthead. As Moore isn't clearly ahead of the other two, I wouldn't select him for Ireland. There are equally good options albeit both Bealham and Ryan are different types of player.

I'm in no doubt that Ian Madigan is better than Jack Carty, Ian Keatley and right now is better than Ross Byrne. Based purely on talent, he should be there. The argument is more nuanced though. If the IRFU were to pick players playing outside of Ireland for the national team, players will think what's the point in staying when a foreign team will pay more and it won't hurt his international prospects? You have to draw a line and as such it's right not to pick Madigan. Short term pain for long term gain.

 

[Groundhog]

Snoop and I are in complete agreement in relation to Moore, notice how Snoop called neither better players.

Putting words in my mouth there... Madigan is not a top class 10, Keatley and Scannell (and Byrne and Carty) however are so far off international standard, Madigan and his 31 caps is not, that this should be seen as exceptional circumstances to bring the guy in, I think the only thing stopping him is the fact we're playing Scotland and Italy in the next two weeks and Carbery and Sexton should be back soon. If we lose at the weekend because some sub standard guy has to play a significant amount of minutes in a close game it won't matter a ****e though.
@Amiga500 Isa has been at that in international windows since 2009 and was at it for most of last season!

I'm not gonna reply to the earlier stuff because I think we fundamentally disagree, largely on things that are off topic so there's no point delving into it any further. Speaking of things we disagree on....
Yes you're the one who called Moore a better player and used the fact he's "a regular starter and performer in a team lying top of the Premiership and in the European QF's" when John Ryan has been a central figure in a team lying at the top of the Pro 12 (assuming we get our game in hand), and higher seeded in the European QFs. I also think Ryan gets around the pitch very well and has a carrying dimension which is ignored. How is there no competition when we've been mullering scrums and pushed for penalty tries all year. In what facet of play would you say Moore is visibly superior because I can't spot one. No diss to the guy because he had a very rough injury too, but Ryan is at least his equal.
Obviously I appreciate your point is that Moore, who I've seen a good amount of now, is disposable under the rules but when you make statements about John Ryan and indeed Bealham it's bound to drag up a response.

Slightly more on topic hopefully Carberry can get a game under his belt and rejoin the Irish squad fast. I know hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I think Ronaldson at Connacht is a very handy player and if he had more time at 10 instead of accommodating Carty by playing 12, I think he's be a very good out half. Carty will likely never be at the level. We've been unexpectedly caught for depth at this position, so hopefully guys like Jackson and beyond him Carberry can show the future is safe in their hands over the next few games, because Sexton is not right, and can't be expected to make any meaningful contribution over the tournament. I think worries for out half are overstated considering we put a 21 year old on in a game against the All Blacks and the system and indeed the player held up very well. No need for panic stations.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

But there is issue. You are convinced Madigan improves us. There's alot who will agree but equally alot who will disagree. Like if Keatley or Scannell came on alot would say Madigan would have done no better or worst. Not enough to break rules.
Like you say it's emergencyin your eyrs others say we are simply missing a 10 who's spending more time on treatment than field lately.

Also on THP I'd also say if Furlong gets injured Moore won't be called either

I never expect everyone, sometimes anyone, to agree with me Muff!

I still wouldn't mind, if Furlong and Ryan were out and Ah You or Bent were called to the bench instead of Moore I'd be a bit ******.

I'm in no doubt that Ian Madigan is better than Jack Carty, Ian Keatley and right now is better than Ross Byrne. Based purely on talent, he should be there. The argument is more nuanced though. If the IRFU were to pick players playing outside of Ireland for the national team, players will think what's the point in staying when a foreign team will pay more and it won't hurt his international prospects? You have to draw a line and as such it's right not to pick Madigan. Short term pain for long term gain.

We're almost in agreement here but I don't think picking Madigan at the weekend would make anyone think moving away didn't hurt his international prospects. He'll be chucked right back to France after Carbery and/or Sexton return and he missed out on the international squad for the first time since he first broke in at the first opportunity after moving to France with a 20 year old who had three times less professional games than Madigan has International games, if that's not a big F you I don't know what is.

 

[munstermuffin]

I never expect everyone, sometimes anyone, to agree with me Muff!

I still wouldn't mind, if Furlong and Ryan were out and Ah You or Bent were called to the bench instead of Moore I'd be a bit ******.

We're almost in agreement here but I don't think picking Madigan at the weekend would make anyone think moving away didn't hurt his international prospects. He'll be chucked right back to France after Carbery and/or Sexton return and he missed out on the international squad for the first time since he first broke in at the first opportunity after moving to France with a 20 year old who had three times less professional games than Madigan has International games, if that's not a big F you I don't know what is.

But you still miss the point. That you say bringing in Madigan wouldn't harm people thinking about abroad. The fact is it sets a precedent and again it puts him ahead of guys who stayed in France. I'm of the opinion this does opposite and says to players stay and your chances rise massively.

The big F you to Madigan is simply you left us. So that's your choice and best of luck. We will deal with what we have. And simply if your not world class and leave Ireland you know story.

And maybe IRFU think you know what. He's an ok 10 but hasn't ever been main man in his career so if we are to break precedent it's not worth it on a guy like him when we have lads as capable under our umbrella. Not saying that is my opinion but some see it as Madigan is no better

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I'm not gonna reply to the earlier stuff because I think we fundamentally disagree, largely on things that are off topic so there's no point delving into it any further. Speaking of things we disagree on....
Yes you're the one who called Moore a better player and used the fact he's "a regular starter and performer in a team lying top of the Premiership and in the European QF's" when John Ryan has been a central figure in a team lying at the top of the Pro 12 (assuming we get our game in hand), and higher seeded in the European QFs. I also think Ryan gets around the pitch very well and has a carrying dimension which is ignored. How is there no competition when we've been mullering scrums and pushed for penalty tries all year. In what facet of play would you say Moore is visibly superior because I can't spot one. No diss to the guy because he had a very rough injury too, but Ryan is at least his equal.
Obviously I appreciate your point is that Moore, who I've seen a good amount of now, is disposable under the rules but when you make statements about John Ryan and indeed Bealham it's bound to drag up a response.

I think worries for out half are overstated considering we put a 21 year old on in a game against the All Blacks and the system and indeed the player held up very well. No need for panic stations.

On Ryan v Moore - I think Moore is better in defence, at rucking, has better mobility, basically every part of the game outside of the set piece. (Not sure on either's line out work) My point at the team he was playing for was that he's playing for a team performing to the same level as Munster, there's not likely to be a big gap in form.

On that last sentence, that 21 year old was/is a far superior 10 to Ian Keatley and was/is both far better and more experienced than Rory Scannell so if either of those guys have to be used for 20 mins with the result far from secure I will be panicking.

- - - Updated - - -

But you still miss the point. That you say bringing in Madigan wouldn't harm people thinking about abroad. The fact is it sets a precedent and again it puts him ahead of guys who stayed in France. I'm of the opinion this does opposite and says to players stay and your chances rise massively.

The big F you to Madigan is simply you left us. So that's your choice and best of luck. We will deal with what we have. And simply if your not world class and leave Ireland you know story.

And maybe IRFU think you know what. He's an ok 10 but hasn't ever been main man in his career so if we are to break precedent it's not worth it on a guy like him when we have lads as capable under our umbrella. Not saying that is my opinion but some see it as Madigan is no better

We'll see if this call up will keep Keatley from going to Bayonne... I somehow doubt it. The only person of potential worth that he'd be picked ahead of is Ross Byrne who is an academy guy who probably knows himself he's better off playing the main man with Leinster than sitting on a bench and only seeing game time if PJ gets injured and would want to have a mighty ego to throw a fit and move to France because someone who was always ahead of him at Leinster got picked ahead of him when he hasn't exactly been world class himself.

On a completely objective viewing of the player calling Madigan an ok 10 is a huge undervaluation of him, he's a good 10, has his struggles with tactical kicking but never looked out of his depth in 31 caps and had some very impressive performances. I doubt that many, if any think Madigan isn't a better player than Keatley to be honest, certainly not anyone who has shared their opinion here.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Back on topic, I have confidence that Paddy Jackson can get the job done. He's been outhalf for Ireland's first win in South Africa and also for Ireland's backs against the wall win against Australia. He has a lot of minutes under his belt from the NZ game in Lansdowne Rd a couple of months ago too. Hopefully he can banish the memory of his less than stellar debut against Scotland in Murrayfield 4 years ago.

 

[munstermuffin]

Back on topic, I have confidence that Paddy Jackson can get the job done. He's been outhalf for Ireland's first win in South Africa and also for Ireland's backs against the wall win against Australia. He has a lot of minutes under his belt from the NZ game in Lansdowne Rd a couple of months ago too. Hopefully he can banish the memory of his less than stellar debut against Scotland in Murrayfield 4 years ago.

I've no fear of PJ and reality us he will be nearly number 1 now as Sexton has injuries. Obviously when fit Johnny plays but it is as is. Has came a long way since then too Snoop.

Alpha my last word on it would be when Keatley goes he will suffer same faith but equally won't effect him as much because if he stayed he wouldn't be considered. That's fair. Keatley knows that. You stay under IRFU and we back you. Equally if Madigan came back I'm sure he's back in contention.
Madigan knew it. He isn't first won't be last. Much better have went before and suffered same. And more better will again too. It kept Zebo from joining Toulouse few years ago too.

Back on game was listening there to Scottish review podcast saying they reckon they can hurt us at lineout

 

[corny]

All told I'd prefer Keatley. Madigan is an average player. Good pass, eye for a gap on occasion but just doesn't have a picture in his head of the game. Makes poor decisions routinely. I could never work out how he got so many caps for Ireland or how he managed to land such a lucrative contract in France. Form and injury have nothing to do with it, he'll be second choice for the duration of his stay at Bordeaux because he's just not that good. Keatley is holding the jersey for Carberry. It'll be a one game warming the bench for 80 mins job. Carberry will play for Leinster, prove his fitness and if Sexton still can't train he'll bench against Italy. I've no problem with all of that.

 

[Groundhog]

All told I'd prefer Keatley. Madigan is an average player. Good pass, eye for a gap on occasion but just doesn't have a picture in his head of the game. Makes poor decisions routinely. I could never work out how he got so many caps for Ireland or how he managed to land such a lucrative contract in France. Form and injury have nothing to do with it, he'll be second choice for the duration of his stay at Bordeaux because he's just not that good. Keatley is holding the jersey for Carberry. It'll be a one game warming the bench for 80 mins job. Carberry will play for Leinster, prove his fitness and if Sexton still can't train he'll bench against Italy. I've no problem with all of that.

My thoughts on the subject exactly

 

[munstermuffin]

All told I'd prefer Keatley. Madigan is an average player. Good pass, eye for a gap on occasion but just doesn't have a picture in his head of the game. Makes poor decisions routinely. I could never work out how he got so many caps for Ireland or how he managed to land such a lucrative contract in France. Form and injury have nothing to do with it, he'll be second choice for the duration of his stay at Bordeaux because he's just not that good. Keatley is holding the jersey for Carberry. It'll be a one game warming the bench for 80 mins job. Carberry will play for Leinster, prove his fitness and if Sexton still can't train he'll bench against Italy. I've no problem with all of that.

I think that is the whole point. Noone thinks Keatley will be a 3rd choice. Carberry will be in there once he gets the cobwebs cleared in week or 2. And I'm glad he wasn't put straight in camp. He's a youngster recovering from his 1st real injury he said recently on OTB so at least he's let back with no pressure. Must say equally he heaps praise on Lancaster for his development

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I was very impressed by the improvement in the autumn by Scotland under what is essentially a dead duck coach. Ireland have the superior coach and depth in the forwards but winning in Murrayfield will arguably be harder for them than winning in South Africa was last summer. The absence of Sexton makes this likely to be a close affair.

Ireland by 6

 

[munstermuffin]

I was very impressed by the improvement in the autumn by Scotland under what is essentially a dead duck coach. Ireland have the superior coach and depth in the forwards but winning in Murrayfield will arguably be harder for them than winning in South Africa was last summer. The absence of Sexton makes this likely to be a close affair.

Ireland by 6

Agreed Bruce especially as a 1st day out teams can be edgy. Will be interesting too tonsee does Bonus Points enter mentality