[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 1: Scotland vs. Ireland (04/02/2017)

[Jockstap]

Don't think either would have started as Schmidt I think has his mind made up on pack a long way out. But that is big reason for lineout. With less options it's easier to predict.
Like yesterday lets give Scottish credit. The 2 Grays did superb abd the more is see of J Gray the more I see of a starting Lion. And he's developing nicely as captain material too.

The big issue I have is Henderson. Again I'm huge fan but he has struggled at lock big time. He hasn't built an engine and I think he gets frustrated as he's a destructive carrier but looses that part of his game as being in 2nd row drains your legs alot more regarding scrums etc

I'm not taking anything away from Scotland, I thought this was going to be our second toughest game of the tournament going in, but when you statistically have one of the worst lineouts in the world for a over a year now, you'd think Joe Schmidt would do something about it.

 

[munstermuffin]

I'm not taking anything away from Scotland, I thought this was going to be our second toughest game of the tournament going in, but when you statistically have one of the worst lineouts in the world for a over a year now, you'd think Joe Schmidt would do something about it.

I'm not disagreeing. 100% agree. As I said we did minimise our chances by selection. CJ Stander and Jamie Heaslip were option 2 and 3 at lineout. Now I see CJ daily and if he is an option 2 we are in trouble because CJ is a little bull like no real height

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I'm not taking anything away from Scotland, I thought this was going to be our second toughest game of the tournament going in, but when you statistically have one of the worst lineouts in the world for a over a year now, you'd think Joe Schmidt would do something about it.

His hands are tied to an extent, I was wrong in the build up saying Henderson over Ryan was a good call, he brought more around the park but the lineout suffered badly, although it was bad with Ryan in there last year too. POM is the missing option but obviously wasn't available to take ball at the front, where Toner is too slow, so we were forced to go long putting pressure on Best's throwing which is never going to end well.

Looking at this game long term we need to implement changes at line-out time and in the back three. POM SOB Heaslip with CJ on the bench should be our starting backrow when all are available which allows us to have Henderson in the second row. Two of Rory O'Loughlin, Adam Byrne, Darren Sweetnam and Craig Gilroy need to come onto the wing, Kearney and Zebo can fight it out for the 15 jersey until Zebo brings to the green jersey what he does in red, its not the solid defence that brought us two championship wins and a win against NZ but with Payne and Trimble not being able to make the next RWC we need to find our edge elsewhere. Our 10's and 12's are defensively fine but getting caught out wide hurts us, having faster players will help that, a guy with pace would have made a better attempt than Earls for Hogg's 2nd try yesterday regardless of the bad decision making.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I felt yesterday's performance show's how much Ireland missed Johnny Sexton. Don't think Paddy Jackson was your answer for the 10 jersey yesterday, and was surprised he was the first choice 10 especially after the last time he played Scotland at Murrayfield...

I think Jackson was one of Ireland's better players, he was one of only two Ireland players to get score a 7 in the Herald today (the other being SOB). He is a bit deep, but if the Irish forwards start to dominate, that becomes less of an issue and I think he is solid physically and mentally. It does seem likely Carberry will be competing heavily with him from next season once the IRU presumably seperates Sexton & Carberry so they can both get game time.

After a brilliant first half from Scotland thought it would be embarrassing if we lost the game. I still cannot understand how Scotland can have 2 completely different half's and its really bugging me that consistency is still a problem for us. Despite us having the best depth for players than we ever had in a long time, having players that can cover in just about in every position. How can we not keep our performance levels for the whole game ?

I think the poorer second half has to be given as credit to the Irish. Their forwards are significantly superior to Scotland's in ball handling, offloading, running with the ball and ball retention through many, many phases. It just saps a defence and even in their poorer first half Ireland were making Scotland work defensively. Our forwards are defensively sound but don't offer much of a threat or the possibility of extended periods of possession. The only Scottish forward I'd rate as a ball handler is Barclay whereas the Irish pack is littered with good ball handlers, even their front row.

I don't think France, Wales or Italy match the Irish pack in the above ways, so hopefully the Scots won't be so inconsistent against them.

 

[dullonien]

Stander carried more times for considerable less metres than Heaslip and ~ 10 more times for 3 or 4 more metres than SOB while supposedly being our main attacking threat... Skewing stats again are we?

I wouldn't get hung-up on stats if I were you. From what I saw, CJ was tasked with carrying in the tight, whilst SOB in particular was allowed more freedom, and thus made lots of metres in wider channels v isolated props & outside backs.

Stander wasn't as effective as usual, I agree. Scotland did a good job of isolating him, and doubling up in the tackle. Still thought he worked hard though. SOB was effective, and was the stand-out in the Irish pack.

But both carrying in the tight, and in the loose are needed for a team to be successful, and as such when thinking about the balance of the back row, maybe picking SOB and Heaslip, whilst benching Stander isn't the way to go. SOB and Heaslip are both more effective in the wider channels, so I'd pick one or the other, alongside CJ. Either that, or replace Henderson in the second row with a lock who's more adept at carrying in the tight. Bonus for Ireland is both props show up well in that regard.

 

[munstermuffin]

On the carrying if you took out the 1 big break from Heaslip he actually only carried for 19m. But look it's done. Not really reflection on either player as no point needle picking and my issue is now to pick on form. Tortured myself and realised something I noticed a while back. We aren't pucking on form and snartness.
CJ is playing superb as an 8. So he's 8 or not on team. Make xall Heaslip or Stander.
Henderson hasn't shown any form or engine as lock but as a 6 he's been good. Play 6 or don't play. My point being we sacrificed guys in form for some better players but not better for position.

 

[dunney77]

Ireland are a 'great' team when they play with the intensity we have seen occasionally over the years (NZ 16, Eng 11 etc). Fact of the matter is, we started slow and in international rugby that is easily enough for you to lose the game.

Our defending out wide really is a huge issue and we need to shore up lineouts.

Team to play Italy:

1) - McGrath
2) - Best
3) - Furlong
4) - Dillane
5) - Toner
6) - POM
7) - SOB
8) - Stander

9) - Murray
10) - Jackson
11) - Zebo
12) - Henshaw
13) - Ringrose
14) - Gilroy
15) - Kearney

 

[munstermuffin]

Ireland are a 'great' team when they play with the intensity we have seen occasionally over the years (NZ 16, Eng 11 etc). Fact of the matter is, we started slow and in international rugby that is easily enough for you to lose the game.

Our defending out wide really is a huge issue and we need to shore up lineouts.

Team to play Italy:

1) - McGrath
2) - Best
3) - Furlong
4) - Dillane
5) - Toner
6) - POM
7) - SOB
8) - Stander

9) - Murray
10) - Jackson
11) - Zebo
12) - Henshaw
13) - Ringrose
14) - Gilroy
15) - Kearney

Personally I'd question Gilroy and go with Ryan over Dillane but equally as I'd say the call is right in picking in position

 

[corny]

Don't understand the talk of 'balance of the back row'. Seemed very balanced to me. All three had excellent games, contributed in every area and all three are the best players we have. Thats harsh on POM and JVDF but it is what it is. Pick a real second row, play with the right attitude and everything will be alright. No need to overreact because we lost.

 

[munstermuffin]

Don't understand the talk of 'balance of the back row'. Seemed very balanced to me. All three had excellent games, contributed in every area and all three are the best players we have. Thats harsh on POM and JVDF but it is what it is. Pick a real second row, play with the right attitude and everything will be alright. No need to overreact because we lost.

All 3 were excellent but we were slaughtered at breakdown. I think papers had some stat on how we were blown out of it and the amount of messy ball harmed us. Watson made remark after how he had bit of a lucky day as we played no ground guy. And we never looked like overturning at breakdown. Don't disagree that they played well

 

[corny]

All 3 were excellent but we were slaughtered at breakdown. I think papers had some stat on how we were blown out of it and the amount of messy ball harmed us. Watson made remark after how he had bit of a lucky day as we played no ground guy. And we never looked like overturning at breakdown. Don't disagree that they played well

O' Brien turned them over and Stander turned them over. Their starting back row only secured one. Slaughtered at the breakdown? The messy ball was more down to the general malaise in the first half and the numbers (1-15) Scotland threw at the breakdown (not the norm in todays age of fanning out in midfield). They took us by surprise and fair play to them. No need for overreaction.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Aye, there's a difference between your back rowers having good games and your backrow having good games.
Under Lancaster our backrowers stats were through the roof, you'd think we were dominant there, but as a unit we were getting smashed by everyone.

I thought SOB had a good game in general but was poor as a 7. Looked like a 6 or 8, big hits and carries, but anonymous at the breakdown.

 

[munstermuffin]

O' Brien turned them over and Stander turned them over. Their starting back row only secured one. Slaughtered at the breakdown? The messy ball was more down to the general malaise in the first half and the numbers (1-15) Scotland threw at the breakdown (not the norm in todays age of fanning out in midfield). They took us by surprise and fair play to them. No need for overreaction.

Just saying that was general concensus that we were hurt at breakdown. Like difference a proper 7 makes is huge. I'm not sure we have 1 in Ireland of world class level yet. Van Der Flier maybe. But look at Aus as an example when Hooper and Pocock both play.
As I say that's just general concensus that breakdown lineout and defensive narrowness what hurt us most.
There won't be huge changes as Schmidt doesn't do that. Just to add I don't think either this is where we lost it more this is where you need to sacrifice a bit to correctbareas that did hurt us

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Don't understand the talk of 'balance of the back row'. Seemed very balanced to me. All three had excellent games, contributed in every area and all three are the best players we have. Thats harsh on POM and JVDF but it is what it is. Pick a real second row, play with the right attitude and everything will be alright. No need to overreact because we lost.

I'd agree with this, the game wasn't lost at the breakdown and in the second half they were definitely on top of the Scots. They cost us big in the line out though and I don't think we have a second row who can fix that. POM is the lineout operator that we need, it may cost us a bit of carrying power but unleashing CJ off the bench is enough to kill any opposition's morale in a tight game and POM isn't exactly a weak carrier.

 

[corny]

Just saying that was general concensus that we were hurt at breakdown. Like difference a proper 7 makes is huge. I'm not sure we have 1 in Ireland of world class level yet. Van Der Flier maybe. But look at Aus as an example when Hooper and Pocock both play.
As I say that's just general concensus that breakdown lineout and defensive narrowness what hurt us most.
There won't be huge changes as Schmidt doesn't do that. Just to add I don't think either this is where we lost it more this is where you need to sacrifice a bit to correctbareas that did hurt us

I think we're just diametrically opposed on this. I find the suggestion that O'Brien can't cut it at 7 laughable. He's an animal at the breakdown. Case in point Hamish Watson didn't secure one turnover yesterday, O'Brien did...yet apparently Watson was 'the ground guy' and O'Brien is a 6/8.

Look at the last game against NZ. Look at the last time he played in Murrayfield.

Edit: Sorry think that was in Dublin but you get the message.

 

[dunney77]

We only lost due to a slow start, if we scored first I think Scottish heads would have dropped (especially with a dominant scrum).

Not taking anything away from Hogg / Scotland, though.

Seriously worried the traditional 'Ireland now need consistency' criticism is going to creep back in.

Furlong really has potential to be world class

 

[munstermuffin]

I think we're just diametrically opposed on this. I find the suggestion that O'Brien can't cut it at 7 laughable. He's an animal at the breakdown. Case in point Hamish Watson didn't secure one turnover yesterday, O'Brien did...yet apparently Watson was 'the ground guy' and O'Brien is a 6/8.

Look at the last game against NZ. Look at the last time he played in Murrayfield.

Edit: Sorry think that was in Dublin but you get the message.

I don't doubt O'Brien as a 7 as such. It's more overall balance. Like look back to when POM was in backrow instead of Stander. He was main turnover guy and overall backrow duties were delegated more by player than number.
I think it's more when you've 3 very similar guys and a deficiency in row in front then that's where issue is.
As I said I'm not disagreeing. Just if you read reviews those are areas highlighted. I don't think anyone said O'Brien can't cut it as a 7. But personally I think his attributes are better suited as a 6 or 8 but don't doubt him as a 7

 

[corny]

I don't doubt O'Brien as a 7 as such. It's more overall balance. Like look back to when POM was in backrow instead of Stander. He was main turnover guy and overall backrow duties were delegated more by player than number.
I think it's more when you've 3 very similar guys and a deficiency in row in front then that's where issue is.
As I said I'm not disagreeing. Just if you read reviews those are areas highlighted. I don't think anyone said O'Brien can't cut it as a 7. But personally I think his attributes are better suited as a 6 or 8 but don't doubt him as a 7

O'Mahony coming in in place of Stander is just adding another groundhog. I've not a problem with that if two breakdown merchants is the idea. I have a problem with the notion that he's needed because O'Brien isn't pulling his weight as a 7. Its lazy and completely antiquated calling him an imposter 7. The chap delivers in spades at the breakdown but some just ignore it because they see him bust through tackles and pigeon him as an 8.

Anyway thats my take. We'll probably have to agree to disagree MM.

 

[munstermuffin]

O'Mahony coming in in place of Stander is just adding another groundhog. I've not a problem with that if two breakdown merchants is the idea. I have a problem with the notion that he's needed because O'Brien isn't pulling his weight as a 7. Its lazy and completely antiquated calling him an imposter 7. The chap delivers in spades at the breakdown but some just ignore it because they see him bust through tackles and pigeon him as an 8.

Anyway thats my take. We'll probably have to agree to disagree MM.

Yeah no I understand but overall you'd agree our lineout etc suffers. Like I accept you rate O'Brien as a 7 and I agree he is more than capable of doing job at 7 at highest level. As he has done. I'm not honing in on O'Brien.

More overall like would you agree Stander Heaslip and SOB are all similar. I accept O'Brien offers more at breakdown etc. Like it's more a POM balanves with lineout work, in tighter carrying the baby yards. Yes he adds to ground game but balance of larger picture.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing as I think you see it as my issue is focused on 7 spot or backrow exclusively. But it's more overall. Like you can see our lineout is in trouble. Toner alone can't be only target. So do we sacrifice backrow a bit for sake fixing other areas? I'm not saying the trio don't work or alone are unbalanced more like overall offering

 

[corny]

Yeah no I understand but overall you'd agree our lineout etc suffers. Like I accept you rate O'Brien as a 7 and I agree he is more than capable of doing job at 7 at highest level. As he has done. I'm not honing in on O'Brien.

More overall like would you agree Stander Heaslip and SOB are all similar. I accept O'Brien offers more at breakdown etc. Like it's more a POM balanves with lineout work, in tighter carrying the baby yards. Yes he adds to ground game but balance of larger picture.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing as I think you see it as my issue is focused on 7 spot or backrow exclusively. But it's more overall. Like you can see our lineout is in trouble. Toner alone can't be only target. So do we sacrifice backrow a bit for sake fixing other areas? I'm not saying the trio don't work or alone are unbalanced more like overall offering

Yeah you (and AB ) have a point on the lineout.