[2016 Super Rugby] SA Transfers & General Discussion

[unrated]

I wonder if the South African Union and Provinces have considered transfer fees for their players. I'm not sure on the legality in rugby but it would be something to look at.

I have been saying this for months now. If the clubs introduce transfer fees they will create two possibilities.
1. It will deter off other clubs because they would not be signing them for free but would have to pay a fee. Then there is the cost of the contract, this has to be good enough to make it an offer that is too good to turn down (which is not much for the European clubs actually)
2. If the player wants to leave the club can gain funds through the fee acquired. They can then invest it in securing their other star players with steady contracts or they can invest in a suitable replacement.

Economically this seems like a good option for the franchises but there never seems to be any contract buyouts. The South African clubs will simply release a player even if he has 3 years left on his contract if that player wanted to leave. Its good for the players but bad for the clubs and fans of Super Rugby.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I have been saying this for months now. If the clubs introduce transfer fees they will create two possibilities.
1. It will deter off other clubs because they would not be signing them for free but would have to pay a fee. Then there is the cost of the contract, this has to be good enough to make it an offer that is too good to turn down (which is not much for the European clubs actually)
2. If the player wants to leave the club can gain funds through the fee acquired. They can then invest it in securing their other star players with steady contracts or they can invest in a suitable replacement.

Economically this seems like a good option for the franchises but there never seems to be any contract buyouts. The South African clubs will simply release a player even if he has 3 years left on his contract if that player wanted to leave. Its good for the players but bad for the clubs and fans of Super Rugby.

TBH how many players that are leaving are leaving whilst still in contract?

 

[unrated]

If i knew who all the players was that moved to Europe i could tell you but it will take hours searching the transfers page to compile a list of every player who has transfered from Super Rugby to European rugby. But it is a majority percentage of all transfers north that was still under contract.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I wonder if the South African Union and Provinces have considered transfer fees for their players. I'm not sure on the legality in rugby but it would be something to look at.

There are transfer fees included when players are contracted to a union/franchise and he is bought while the contract is still valid, but because of our poor currency, we just can't compete with the NH teams and the offers they make.

When it comes to contracts inside SA where one player is contracted from another union/franchise, it's usually because his contract has run out (like in Lood De Jager's case) and another union/franchise made him a better offer.

The other problem is the drafting of youth players, we have system special to SA only in that the home union has first option to draft a player based on the school he went to and which team he represented at Craven Week. If that home union doesn't want him, then other unions can contract him, and ultimately it depends on the player.

 

[welshglory]

There are transfer fees included when players are contracted to a union/franchise and he is bought while the contract is still valid, but because of our poor currency, we just can't compete with the NH teams and the offers they make.

When it comes to contracts inside SA where one player is contracted from another union/franchise, it's usually because his contract has run out (like in Lood De Jager's case) and another union/franchise made him a better offer.

The other problem is the drafting of youth players, we have system special to SA only in that the home union has first option to draft a player based on the school he went to and which team he represented at Craven Week. If that home union doesn't want him, then other unions can contract him, and ultimately it depends on the player.

If you put a decent premium on the fees (relatively) though for foreign clubs not to scare them off and anger the players and their agents, due to the depreciation of the Rand they could make some good coin no?

When it comes to domestic transfers I think drafts are a good idea, they have it in NZ as well where they centrally contract the top nucleus of the squad and the leftovers go into a draft system. I think we could learn from that in Europe where you see teams stockpile talent for a whole season and then being underused and underdeveloped as a consequence.

For youth players are you referring to rookies at pro/Super Rugby level or U20/U18's?

 

[TRF_heineken]

If you put a decent premium on the fees (relatively) though for foreign clubs not to scare them off and anger the players and their agents, due to the depreciation of the Rand they could make some good coin no?

When it comes to domestic transfers I think drafts are a good idea, they have it in NZ as well where they centrally contract the top nucleus of the squad and the leftovers go into a draft system. I think we could learn from that in Europe where you see teams stockpile talent for a whole season and then being underused and underdeveloped as a consequence.

For youth players are you referring to rookies at pro/Super Rugby level or U20/U18's?

Youth Players as in fresh out of high school After Craven week. That is players at the age of 18-20. As most of them gets contracted just after Craven Week/when they finish school. Most of them go and play Varsity Cup, but are already contracted with a union in some form, like the Tuks team are all contracted with the Blue Bulls. If they play well in the Varsity Cup and another union wants him, they have to take it up with the Blue Bulls Rugby Union (BBRU) first.

As for the Currenc issue, Eddie Jones is the Prime Example here. He was contracted to be the Stormers coach for this year's Super Rugby tournament, he was in Cape Town barely a week, when England approached him to coach the national team, and they paid the big exit clause of his contract to the Stormers with a massive smile on their face as they saw it as a cheap transaction, while the Stormers got more than they ever did before for a player...

 

[welshglory]

Youth Players as in fresh out of high school After Craven week. That is players at the age of 18-20. As most of them gets contracted just after Craven Week/when they finish school. Most of them go and play Varsity Cup, but are already contracted with a union in some form, like the Tuks team are all contracted with the Blue Bulls. If they play well in the Varsity Cup and another union wants him, they have to take it up with the Blue Bulls Rugby Union (BBRU) first.

As for the Currenc issue, Eddie Jones is the Prime Example here. He was contracted to be the Stormers coach for this year's Super Rugby tournament, he was in Cape Town barely a week, when England approached him to coach the national team, and they paid the big exit clause of his contract to the Stormers with a massive smile on their face as they saw it as a cheap transaction, while the Stormers got more than they ever did before for a player...

Ah right i see. Like i said though at youth level i think it's fair enough because you want to have an even spread of talent. Especially in a system like in SA and the SH where the provincial unions are linked to the National Union unlike the private clubs in England and France for example.

It's an interesting topic youth contracting because unlike soccer, rugby players don't tend to be ready for pro level until over the age of 19 and thus don't even receive academy/development contracts until then. So youth transfer fees are pretty mute. Also in rugby the academy systems tend to be heavily linked with National Unions, through funding and licensing etc... So there is technically nothing owed to the developing teams, whilst in soccer they are primarily private projects who have nurtured the players.

Yeah Eddie Jones is a prime example why they should be looking at bringing it in for player contracts. Perhaps to start off part centrally contracting the best youth prospects to SARU with long contracts and transfer fees.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Ah right i see. Like i said though at youth level i think it's fair enough because you want to have an even spread of talent. Especially in a system like in SA and the SH where the provincial unions are linked to the National Union unlike the private clubs in England and France for example.

It's an interesting topic youth contracting because unlike soccer, rugby players don't tend to be ready for pro level until over the age of 19 and thus don't even receive academy/development contracts until then. So youth transfer fees are pretty mute. Also in rugby the academy systems tend to be heavily linked with National Unions, through funding and licensing etc... So there is technically nothing owed to the developing teams, whilst in soccer they are primarily private projects who have nurtured the players.

Yeah Eddie Jones is a prime example why they should be looking at bringing it in for player contracts. Perhaps to start off part centrally contracting the best youth prospects to SARU with long contracts and transfer fees.

The thing is though, that some regions have more Rugby Schools than others, like the Western Province area, whereas an area like Limpopo where I live we have maybe 12 schools at the most who actively play rugby, and then compile a team to play in the Craven week. Limpopo is one area that feeds the Blue Bulls, and while it's one of the biggest provinces in the country, it has a very small demographic of rugby players. Only 8 Schools had players sent to the Craven Week that represented Limpopo.

Then you go to Western Cape and you have schools like Paarl Gym and Paarl Boys, and Paul Roos etc. and they have players that can walk into any Craven Week team, but doesn't make the cut in their own province.

 

[welshglory]

The thing is though, that some regions have more Rugby Schools than others, like the Western Province area, whereas an area like Limpopo where I live we have maybe 12 schools at the most who actively play rugby, and then compile a team to play in the Craven week. Limpopo is one area that feeds the Blue Bulls, and while it's one of the biggest provinces in the country, it has a very small demographic of rugby players. Only 8 Schools had players sent to the Craven Week that represented Limpopo.

Then you go to Western Cape and you have schools like Paarl Gym and Paarl Boys, and Paul Roos etc. and they have players that can walk into any Craven Week team, but doesn't make the cut in their own province.

If those players who don't make the cut in their own province get a contract in another province through the draft, all is well isn't it? Or am i missing something here

Edit: Are you saying that the provinces which produce more players should be rewarded for it? Technically it's not the provinces developing them right? It's the schools.

 

[TRF_heineken]

If those players who don't make the cut in their own province get a contract in another province through the draft, all is well isn't it? Or am i missing something here

Edit: Are you saying that the provinces which produce more players should be rewarded for it? Technically it's not the provinces developing them right? It's the schools.

If you want to get technical here, then the Province or Rugby Union has the developmental rights to those players.

SARU (South African Rugby Union) provides requirements and all standards each school should strive to be a rugby playing school. But its the provincial rugby Unions who implement the developmental tools at the schools. For example, Limpopo's rugby playing teams are all part of a school tournament that includes teams from Gauteng (Where Both the Blue Bulls and Lions Unions are situated) as well as the North-west province and Mpumalanga.

All the teams are ranked based on the amount of kids are at the schools and previous year's participation and performance. The Blue Bulls and Lions Rugby unions assist with the training of the referees, medics and assistant personnel. In some cases the Blue Bulls rugby union even pay the bill if the matches are hosted in Pretoria at the University's grounds, when a lot of the teams all have to be in Pretoria for matches such as the playoffs.

The Provincial Unions also have a mandate from SARU to assist in development of Rugby in the rural areas (Of which Limpopo has a lot of areas) but they struggle to implement rugby, as those areas have been also identified by SAFA (South African Football Association) after the 2010 Soccer World Cup and got a big chunk of funding to assist in those areas who are traditionally more soccer orientated. So what happens is the Union struggles to develop in that area, and the money is then diverted to another area for development purposes.

This year, a lot of funds were pushed to the Limpopo Rugby Academy, for U19 and U20 year old players who aren't in high school anymore. They have a training facility and a full time coach which they didn't have in the past. These are all guys who didn't go to University, are working full time jobs, and play rugby after work and on weekends. The plan is to send more funding their way so that in the years to come, these guys don't have to work full time or even part time, and can only focus on rugby and making it a career.

 

[welshglory]

If you want to get technical here, then the Province or Rugby Union has the developmental rights to those players.

SARU (South African Rugby Union) provides requirements and all standards each school should strive to be a rugby playing school. But its the provincial rugby Unions who implement the developmental tools at the schools. For example, Limpopo's rugby playing teams are all part of a school tournament that includes teams from Gauteng (Where Both the Blue Bulls and Lions Unions are situated) as well as the North-west province and Mpumalanga.

All the teams are ranked based on the amount of kids are at the schools and previous year's participation and performance. The Blue Bulls and Lions Rugby unions assist with the training of the referees, medics and assistant personnel. In some cases the Blue Bulls rugby union even pay the bill if the matches are hosted in Pretoria at the University's grounds, when a lot of the teams all have to be in Pretoria for matches such as the playoffs.

The Provincial Unions also have a mandate from SARU to assist in development of Rugby in the rural areas (Of which Limpopo has a lot of areas) but they struggle to implement rugby, as those areas have been also identified by SAFA (South African Football Association) after the 2010 Soccer World Cup and got a big chunk of funding to assist in those areas who are traditionally more soccer orientated. So what happens is the Union struggles to develop in that area, and the money is then diverted to another area for development purposes.

This year, a lot of funds were pushed to the Limpopo Rugby Academy, for U19 and U20 year old players who aren't in high school anymore. They have a training facility and a full time coach which they didn't have in the past. These are all guys who didn't go to University, are working full time jobs, and play rugby after work and on weekends. The plan is to send more funding their way so that in the years to come, these guys don't have to work full time or even part time, and can only focus on rugby and making it a career.

Thanks for the insight.
So players who don't go to university are at a disadvantage yeah?
From your explanation of the SA system I can the French clubs swooping in the future more and more. Sounds like players are really in limbo if they're not at a Varsity cup side or top province.
On a side note, Australia could learn something from the SA school's system though and look into having a more intertwined system with their state's and private school's and a competition like Craven week.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Thanks for the insight.
So players who don't go to university are at a disadvantage yeah?
From your explanation of the SA system I can the French clubs swooping in the future more and more. Sounds like players are really in limbo if they're not at a Varsity cup side or top province.
On a side note, Australia could learn something from the SA school's system though and look into having a more intertwined system with their state's and private school's and a competition like Craven week.

I think the road to the top is much harder nowadays if you're not at Varsity, yeah. But there are the odd ones who gets through unscathed. But the inevitable poaching from the NH clubs are something we have grown accustomed to.

If we take the recent Craven Week as an example, we had 22 teams participating, of which 2 of those teams were invitational sides from Namibia and Zimbabwe respectively. That leaves us with 20 teams where all the 31 players of each team are South Africans. That is 620 players. fresh out of high school.

There is no way that all 620 players will be snapped up by NH teams, in fact, I don't think even half of that will be lured abroad. Plus, most of the top players will be snapped up by the local unions too. The problem is that the fringe players are the ones that gets lured to the NH, and usually they are late bloomers who will in the future become even better rugby players. If I look at the current situation I would say the best 50 or so players are kept in SA, then the next 50-100 "fringe players" gets snapped up from the NH, and the last bunch of players quietly go on their way. Some go to Varsity, play some rugby while studying, and that's the end of their rugby career, others excel and become Springboks.

The thing is though with the Quota system, nearly 200 players didn't even make it to the Craven Week. and it's those guys who are a loss to SA Rugby. The get discouraged from playing because they know they won't be picked as they have to make way for another player of similar talent, perhaps less than him, because of the colour of his skin, so he looks to other avenues for a future.