[2016 Super Rugby] Jaguares vs. Sharks (Round 12) 14/05/2016

[TRF_heineken]

Venue: Estadio Jose Amalfitani
Time: 22:40 CAT (SA, GMT+2)​

 

[FNS]

Tough match. Cordero and Moroni wont be available to Jags they going to the sevens(total lack of respect for the tournament in my opinion).

 

[saulan]

Tough match. Cordero and Moroni wont be available to Jags they going to the sevens(total lack of respect for the tournament in my opinion).

Some of those players for the SA teams are also from some Super Rugby sides. Senatla is from WP/Stormers and is just not playing Super Rugby this year (he is a starter in Currie Cup). Kolbe has been in and out both the Stormers and the Blitzbok sides, Warren Whitely is the captain of the Lions and Kwagga Smith starts for the Lions in Currie Cup. It's par for the course when you have a very busy rugby calendar and Olympic rugby.

 

[Regan]

You'd have to back the Sharks given their last few performances.

 

[marianodan]

Cordero and Moroni are good, but can be replaced (sort of). Is everyone else available or are there still injuries? Tuculet's fine?



BTW we have to vote the name of the mascot (?): Jaggy, Jaguardo or Garra are the options.

 

[FNS]

Yeah both are expendables but leave us with Montero and Boffelli and no one as back up.(thats if Tuculet plays as 15).

Jaguardo and Garra are plain awful haha i go with Jaggy.

As a note: The commentator on the stadium said we have to baptize the mascot..and also a the cheerleaders haha a collective laugh ensured.

 

[unrated]

With all the red cards lately for tackling player in air etc. We have seen the sharks try to counter this by kicking deep constantly in their game against the Hurricanes (at least that's my reasoning). It seems to me that if travel will ever be a factor then it should become so now for the sharks. If the Sharks are not fatigued for this match then i will never advocate the argument that long distance travel fatigues players ever again. Jags supporters has been calling for their team to play more balanced (kicking and running) but i believe they should just run the sharks in the ground. Just show more energy and they should take this one.

 

[TRF_heineken]

With all the red cards lately for tackling player in air etc. We have seen the sharks try to counter this by kicking deep constantly in their game against the Hurricanes (at least that's my reasoning). It seems to me that if travel will ever be a factor then it should become so now for the sharks. If the Sharks are not fatigued for this match then i will never advocate the argument that long distance travel fatigues players ever again. Jags supporters has been calling for their team to play more balanced (kicking and running) but i believe they should just run the sharks in the ground. Just show more energy and they should take this one.

Yeah, I think so too. The Sharks has had a grueling tour, basically circumventing the globe in a matter of a week.

But I wonder if the Sharks will start the same team they did against the Hurricanes? I think if they're smart, they'll start Lambie, fresh, and fit again, and play the territorial game to assist his team in not being too fatigued, then start a wing like Sithole to chase every kick and make sure the Jaguares don't try to run every ball back. Sithole has had hardly any game time the last few weeks, and Ndungane was preferred ahead of him (Why????).

If the Sharks box clever, they will win this one, even if it's just through penalties alone...

 

[FNS]

If they are tired and give us the ball a lot by kicking then i can see a good match for Jaguares.

 

[Colombia]

Are the Jaguares the worst coached side ever?

You have the basis of a squad that can make a RWC SF, competing with NZ, AUS and SA, yet struggle to put away teams like the Cheetahs, Sunwolves etc.

It can't be the players, so it has to be the coaches? Or am I wrong?

 

[Bruno_ARG]

Are the Jaguares the worst coached side ever?

You have the basis of a squad that can make a RWC SF, competing with NZ, AUS and SA, yet struggle to put away teams like the Cheetahs, Sunwolves etc.

It can't be the players, so it has to be the coaches? Or am I wrong?

I'm with you on that. You could say that you cannot expect Jaguares to have the same performance the Pumas had in the last RWC. But it doesn't make any sense that the difference between the two is as huge as we are witnessing this season.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

When i saw the lineup against the blues it was clear to me the staff had lost the plot (check the thread!). Having said that, i can't place all the blame on the coach for the ridiculous amount of unforced errors and missed tackles we've committed.

 

[marianodan]

Sorry to be repetitive with this topic, but I've to insist: Imhoff, Ayerza, Cubelli, Fernández Lobbe, Bosch, Figallo...

 

[CocoPampas]

I'm with marianodan in this one.
Of course there were several coaching problems, but people insist to compare the Jaguares roster with the last RWC Pumas. Half of our first XV is missing and this have a big impact on Argentine available quality and depth. I think that a lot of people will finally realize about this after the next Rugby Championship.
This lack of depth is a big issue with Jaguares/pumas playing the Super Rugby (15 mactches) + June Window (6 matches) + Rugby Championship (6 matches) without any rest in between.
The Jaguares/pumas can't use the same 20 players for all their matches. Therefore, don't have any other alternative than rotate players and develop young players during the Super Rugby. This idea was evident during the NZ/Japan tour, although the way that this rotation was implemented was one of the big coaching mistakes IMO.
However, with all this in mind I think that the high expectation on the Jaguares performace (reaching the QF) wasn't realist. Yes, our best 20 players should be able to beat any super rugby franchise in a good day. But in a 15 week tournament and playing against NZ teams, we didn't have a chance from the begining.

 

[unrated]

Are the Jaguares the worst coached side ever?

You have the basis of a squad that can make a RWC SF, competing with NZ, AUS and SA, yet struggle to put away teams like the Cheetahs, Sunwolves etc.

It can't be the players, so it has to be the coaches? Or am I wrong?

Dont be too hard on coaching. The Jaguares will do much better next season. No team has ever come into super rugby and excelled from the first season never mind reaching the playoffs . Some of these Super rugby sides can beat the British and Irish lions on their day if they had their full squads. Super rugby is tough, there are other teams in this competition who also has 12+ internationals playing in their team.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Dont be too hard on coaching. The Jaguares will do much better next season. No team has ever come into super rugby and excelled from the first season never mind reaching the playoffs . Some of these Super rugby sides can beat the British and Irish lions on their day if they had their full squads. Super rugby is tough, there are other teams in this competition who also has 12+ internationals playing in their team.

This!

Remember that it's a whole new era. The coaches as well as the players have never before been exposed to this gruelling tournament both on the field as well as the teavelling. Apart from Juan Martin Hernandes, I don't think any of the players ever played SR before this year (I could be wrong).

It's also the first year where the teams have to travel to Japan, Argentina, South Africa, Singapore and New Zealand. It's definitely been an overwhelming experience so far. And add to that, the pace of the games is something that many players struggle with.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Yeah, I'd like to echo these sentiments above my post. Probably - though do feel the Jaguares lack an identity still in the way they play and this could've/should've not been the case- we were all probably a bit overoptimistic and unrealistic about their chances for a maiden tournament especially considering the history of new teams struggling.

I can't remember where I read it but or their first year in tournament the Jaguares have had the best 'points against' column by some distance. If I remember correctly:

Cheeaths were conceding somewhere at ~40 a game their first season, Force ~44, Rebel also around ~40, Kings ~48 and the Sunwolves ~45 while the Jaguares are in at conceding below 30 at ~28 points conceded per game. Certainly way less than the combined averages of team in their maiden year. The Cheetahs reached the play-offs in 2013 and the Rebels were for a time top of the Aussie log just a few weeks ago. Surely the Jaguares with their much better ratios in their maiden year will pick it up sooner than those teams. The Jaguares will also have the benefit of not playing any NZ sides in the league stage next year.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Dont be too hard on coaching. The Jaguares will do much better next season. No team has ever come into super rugby and excelled from the first season never mind reaching the playoffs . Some of these Super rugby sides can beat the British and Irish lions on their day if they had their full squads. Super rugby is tough, there are other teams in this competition who also has 12+ internationals playing in their team.

Sorry, i don't buy this. Results were below what most of us expected and someone needs to be accountable. Not necessarily sacked, but he needs to answer for his mistakes.
Let's divide this in 2 to make the analysis more straightforward: players and coaching staff.
It wasn't just argentines who had high expectations. Check NZ, RSA or Aus newspapers from january and you can corroborate that. Can't remember the author, but i remember the quote being "we might have created a monster" while talking about the jaguares. Sure, it wasn't all the pumas but the number of them was high enough to make the comparison relevant, fair and justified. Again, it wasn't just us who bought the hype. We dropped more balls and missed more tackles than we generally do, fair enough, it happens.
Although our results were poor, i believe games like the ones vs the chiefs clearly show the potential is there.

So that brings me to the coaching staff. You could argue that getting used to a new competition will take a toll on the team. Sure, i can buy that. But that is something we knew about in advance and had all the resources to either prevent from happening, or at the very least, take actions in order to minimize the consequences. We did not. That is 100% the coaches (or UAR's) fault. If we are entering a new competition that is so bloody hard to adapt to in the first season, i don't think it take a NASA engineer nor a neurosurgeon to realize that maybe hiring someone with experience in SR (from outside Argentina if need be) as an assistant coach might add some well needed value.

Second, the player rotation (sorry to be repetitive) was laughable. I'm not jumping in the bandwagon now to beat the dead horse, i said it back then when i saw we were saving players against the blues (our best shot at winning a game in NZ) to use them against tougher competition.

Third, you can argue that we are playing a new style of rugby and as with most transitions, mixed results are expected. This i can understand. The problem is that when the Pumas had this approach, they made it crystal clear (to the players, the media and fans) that their priority was not 2015 but 2019. If good results came along then great, but the focus was not on results. That is how you should communicate. It's not rocket science, just proper management of expectations. But that was not the case. Everything that came out was (99%) a plethora of excuses that ranged from adjusting to different time zones to poor travel arrangements to playing against the best. What really upsets me is that they tell us this with a straight face, as if these were abnormal, completely random and capricious events that could have never been predicted in advance. THAT is what ****** me off. We could have done things about all of those and we did not.
So it boils down to one of two things: either we didn't know what we were getting into, or we did and managed it poorly. Either way, it's our own bloody fault.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Sorry, i don't buy this. Results were below what most of us expected and someone needs to be accountable. Not necessarily sacked, but he needs to answer for his mistakes.
Let's divide this in 2 to make the analysis more straightforward: players and coaching staff.
It wasn't just argentines who had high expectations. Check NZ, RSA or Aus newspapers from january and you can corroborate that. Can't remember the author, but i remember the quote being "we might have created a monster" while talking about the jaguares. Sure, it wasn't all the pumas but the number of them was high enough to make the comparison relevant, fair and justified. Again, it wasn't just us who bought the hype. We dropped more balls and missed more tackles than we generally do, fair enough, it happens.
Although our results were poor, i believe games like the ones vs the chiefs clearly show the potential is there.

So that brings me to the coaching staff. You could argue that getting used to a new competition will take a toll on the team. Sure, i can buy that. But that is something we knew about in advance and had all the resources to either prevent from happening, or at the very least, take actions in order to minimize the consequences. We did not. That is 100% the coaches (or UAR's) fault. If we are entering a new competition that is so bloody hard to adapt to in the first season, i don't think it take a NASA engineer nor a neurosurgeon to realize that maybe hiring someone with experience in SR (from outside Argentina if need be) as an assistant coach might add some well needed value.

Second, the player rotation (sorry to be repetitive) was laughable. I'm not jumping in the bandwagon now to beat the dead horse, i said it back then when i saw we were saving players against the blues (our best shot at winning a game in NZ) to use them against tougher competition.

Third, you can argue that we are playing a new style of rugby and as with most transitions, mixed results are expected. This i can understand. The problem is that when the Pumas had this approach, they made it crystal clear (to the players, the media and fans) that their priority was not 2015 but 2019. If good results came along then great, but the focus was not on results. That is how you should communicate. It's not rocket science, just proper management of expectations. But that was not the case. Everything that came out was (99%) a plethora of excuses that ranged from adjusting to different time zones to poor travel arrangements to playing against the best. What really upsets me is that they tell us this with a straight face, as if these were abnormal, completely random and capricious events that could have never been predicted in advance. THAT is what ****** me off. We could have done things about all of those and we did not.
So it boils down to one of two things: either we didn't know what we were getting into, or we did and managed it poorly. Either way, it's our own bloody fault.

How can you know what you are getting yourself into, when you have no idea on what will happen. As stated above this year's tournament is a whole new kettle of fish that everyone needs to adapt to. There is not one single team that has remained unbeaten. To put blame solely on the coaching staff is IMHO a bit shortsighted. This is just as an overwhelming experience for them as it is for the players.

When writers made predictions prior to this year's tournament, a lot of things were said, I doubt many of those remarks will still be echoed today. Many people said that the Kings won't win a single game this year, and already they have proven them wrong. Many said that the Bulls won't be playoff contenders, yet they are still in the hunt. The list goes on. I just think some Jaguares fans are way too critical of their team and expect way too much of them too early. Look at the Rebels, it has taken them a fair while to become competitive and its only now that they show some promise and could potentially be ***le contenders.

 

[saulan]

From my point of view, I expected the Jaguares to make the playoffs. I understand why they had to do the rotation policy, but I really do think it played a significant role in their poor season performance. I also expected a lot more from the Sunwolves, but they got hampered by other reasons. Frankly, I think that unless there is a turnaround very quickly and a flurry of wins, this season will definitely be seen as a failure. (and in my mind, by losing to the other new entry with a nation that has a smaller rugby culture, it probably already is.)

I definitely think they will learn from this though and will grow from the experience. I am very interested to see how the Pumas side operates in the Rugby Championship after this tournament.