[2016 Super Rugby] Crusaders vs. Jaguares (Round 8) 15/04/2016

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Bertanou was ok. Hernandez was somewhere between pretty bad and terrible.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Quick summary for those who missed it. Pay attention from 1:10 onwards. It's so sad it's kinda funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdxrGUcTxC8
@smartcooky. Have a look at the video above. Time: 1:24. That kinda looks like the crusaders player falls over the jaguares player. Jaguares player just got the ball, is trying to stand up and while on the floor you can see the kneeled crusader with his arm over his opponents back.

 

[smartcooky]

Quick summary for those who missed it. Pay attention from 1:10 onwards. It's so sad it's kinda funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdxrGUcTxC8
@smartcooky. Have a look at the video above. Time: 1:24. That kinda looks like the crusaders player falls over the jaguares player. Jaguares player just got the ball, is trying to stand up and while on the floor you can see the kneeled crusader with his arm over his opponents back.

It doesn't always pay to look at a still and make your judgement on that.

1. Mo'inga was already on his way to the ground to gather the ball himself (knee to ground well short of the player) but is beaten to it by a fraction of a second.

2. He doesn't stay on the ground (which would be penalisable), he immediately gets to his feet (his knee is on the ground for 7 frames of video with a frame rate of 30 frames per second, less than ¼ of a second!)

3. While on his feet, he rips the ball and scores.

I see nothing there to penalise.

 

[die_mole]

It doesn't always pay to look at a still and make your judgement on that.

1. Mo'inga was already on his way to the ground to gather the ball himself (knee to ground well short of the player) but is beaten to it by a fraction of a second.

2. He doesn't stay on the ground (which would be penalisable), he immediately gets to his feet (his knee is on the ground for 7 frames of video with a frame rate of 30 frames per second, less than ¼ of a second!)

3. While on his feet, he rips the ball and scores.

I see nothing there to penalise.

i definitely manage situations like that like open play... yes two players are on the ground but they are only falling to get to the ball which they are both able to do
then once of the players gets control they both get to their feet and then the ball is stripped

i don't see where anyone could ask for a penalty

 

[JH1315]

Crusaders got lucky in my opinion, definitely the better team but the refs missed what I thought was a clear obstruction which then led to Tuculet being sinbinned moments after.
I also don't like the interpretation with the Ellis punch. In my opinion it shouldn't really matter if he connects or not, because obviously he still had the same intent.

 

[nzlizard]

I also don't like the interpretation with the Ellis punch. In my opinion it shouldn't really matter if he connects or not, because obviously he still had the same intent.

Agree

 

[Jaguares]

I must to say that this was the game where our opponents were clearly superior to us. In the other games like Chiefs, Stormers, Sharks or Blues, we had chances to win. Here the difference was sooooooo big

 

[austingtir]

Agree

I dont but you all know what I think of this type of stuff.


Was good to see Dagg play well for once. Will be interesting to see if he turns up against some decent opposition though. If he is capable of playing like he did circa 2011 again id have him back in the AB's. Iv always said they guy has the potential to be as good as Ben Smith and if thats the case id have no problem with him back at fullback and Ben on the wing Simply because Dagg is no winger not because I think he's better than Smith which I think is obviously not the case.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

It doesn't always pay to look at a still and make your judgement on that.

I only posted that to show the exact moment of the video i was referring to.

1. Mo'inga was already on his way to the ground to gather the ball himself (knee to ground well short of the player) but is beaten to it by a fraction of a second.

I guess here is where we disagree because that is not what i see. There is no way he thought he would get to the ball first, hence my comment.
I understand your interpretation and appreciate your pov, but in this case i'm afraid i have to disagree.

About the game, we probably played our most uninspiring rugby so far. In some of our previous games we ve been poor at execution but at least we knew what the plan was. I have no idea what the lads were doing yesterday. And i flet it wasn t the saders the ones playing too well but us playing too bad.

 

[Dark Horse]

I only posted that to show the exact moment of the video i was referring to.


I guess here is where we disagree because that is not what i see. There is no way he thought he would get to the ball first, hence my comment.
I understand your interpretation and appreciate your pov, but in this case i'm afraid i have to disagree.

About the game, we probably played our most uninspiring rugby so far. In some of our previous games we ve been poor at execution but at least we knew what the plan was. I have no idea what the lads were doing yesterday. And i flet it wasn t the saders the ones playing too well but us playing too bad.

I'm not Argentinian but yours is the team I follow closest in this competition because they've brought colour and something different. Where do you think the team goes from here? I don't think anyone expected their results to be this awful but it just seems to me that when they are in a position to win they always give it away. See the Velez game vs the Chiefs.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Short answer: god knows. We're temperamental and unpredictable. I also think we shot ourselves in the foot with unrealistic expectations.

I don't think anyone expected such results. I think we were a bit unlucky here and there but we are our own worst enemy. I've said it before and i'll say it again: we are trying to play a style of rugby we are not particularly good at, we are making mistakes and paying dearly for them. When Argentine fans start asking themselves "why aren't we kicking a bit more", something is going on.
There are two questions here

1) How long till we improve
2) Are we willing to put up with bad results till then

Another thing is that i can understand the unforced errors. We are playing more open than we are used to. That's fine. Mistakes will happen as they do during any transition period. The problem i see, is that this open style apparently came at the expense of becoming sloppy on defense. That worries me. I expected our scrum to be stronger too.
Then again, i felt we played on pretty much equal terms with the chiefs and the stormers. If i'm honest, i'd even go as far as saying we lost those game (as opposed of them winning them). So the potential is there. I think we lost the plot after that. I hope the lads take this opportunity to learn

I know comparisons with the pumas are tricky, but i think they are inevitable too. When i see the amount of unforced errors, missed tackles and scrums lost, i have to assume part of the problem has to be management.

 

[Dark Horse]

Short answer: god knows. We're temperamental and unpredictable. I also think we shot ourselves in the foot with unrealistic expectations.

I don't think anyone expected such results. I think we were a bit unlucky here and there but we are our own worst enemy. I've said it before and i'll say it again: we are trying to play a style of rugby we are not particularly good at, we are making mistakes and paying dearly for them. When Argentine fans start asking themselves "why aren't we kicking a bit more", something is going on.
There are two questions here

1) How long till we improve
2) Are we willing to put up with bad results till then

Another thing is that i can understand the unforced errors. We are playing more open than we are used to. That's fine. Mistakes will happen as they do during any transition period. The problem i see, is that this open style apparently came at the expense of becoming sloppy on defense. That worries me. I expected our scrum to be stronger too.
Then again, i felt we played on pretty much equal terms with the chiefs and the stormers. If i'm honest, i'd even go as far as saying we lost those game (as opposed of them winning them). So the potential is there. I think we lost the plot after that. I hope the lads take this opportunity to learn

I know comparisons with the pumas are tricky, but i think they are inevitable too. When i see the amount of unforced errors, missed tackles and scrums lost, i have to assume part of the problem has to be management.

I agree with every single thing you said, particularly about the games they let slip away. What are local rugby people saying or are they just happy to be part of the Super Rugby party? Are they saying all the things that you have said? Have the management tried to explain themselves in any way? We don't hear much in the English speaking media and such is the insular nature of the SANZAR countries, particularly NZ, aren't likely to any time soon. I like the transition to an open style but not at the complete expense of everything we associate with Argentinian rugby. I think the reason they make so many errors is because (a) they tried to change their identity overnight and (b) that change means that they are forcing what they believe to be the Super Rugby style and are trying things that the highly skilful, yet pragmatic, New Zealand teams would never try. I don't think the Jags should be left off the hook because they are a new team. This is not the Kings or the Sunwolves we are talking about. This is a well-organised, well-funded, well-supported, highly skilful team who are making an absolute mess of things and I would like to think that the Argentinian rugby people and media are pushing the management for answers. If Perez and Contepomi were in charge of Boca, would they still have their jobs?

 

[FNS]

This is a well-organised, well-funded, well-supported, highly skilful team who are making an absolute mess of things and I would like to think that the Argentinian rugby people and media are pushing the management for answers. If Perez and Contepomi were in charge of Boca, would they still have their jobs?

Next year they will have to make adjustments. The tournament is too big for "Perez and Contepomi". They try to play like the Pumas but this team has at key players missing. Ex. Pumas in RWC made handling errors but Ayerza and Figallo would force a penalty after that...so it was mitigated. Imhoff broke several times the line and was explosive. Bosch and Hernadez locked the center. You had 2 Great scrumhalf. You had Fernadez lobbe(old and all is still great)

Right now the 1st choices for Jaguares are the guys that were playing bench at that time....So...6 matches bad results...expectable. Sadly this year expect at least 6/7/8 more loses and maybe 5/6 wins(they will come we are far better than the other last teams that for sure).

As for local rugby at least in URBA they can go and suck a bag of ****. Making players choose between Pladar or their teams...pffff.

Bottom line, be patient, in 3 years we´ll have a national squad that is in the top 4 not just in a RWC.Meanwhile enjoy going to the stadium, the cheerleaders, the mascot that looks like a dog instead of a Jaguar , the horrible cold weather we are going to face in Velez, its like being in a mountain up there.

 

[Jaguares]

If Perez and Contepomi were in charge of Boca, would they still have their jobs?

Of course, they wouldn't. And the Tano Loffreda wouldn't have been the Pumas coach in WC 2007 because before that, he lost to Italy and in football/soccer that's equivalent to a dismissal. That's one of the big differences between rugby and football/soccer. Their supporters also throwing pepper gas against opposing players. And if you are a supporter of other team and you wearing your jersey in Casa Amarilla, you probably receive a beating. Those are the beautiful differences between us and them

 

[Shaggy]

Next year they will have to make adjustments. The tournament is too big for "Perez and Contepomi". They try to play like the Pumas but this team has at key players missing. Ex. Pumas in RWC made handling errors but Ayerza and Figallo would force a penalty after that...so it was mitigated. Imhoff broke several times the line and was explosive. Bosch and Hernadez locked the center. You had 2 Great scrumhalf. You had Fernadez lobbe(old and all is still great)

Right now the 1st choices for Jaguares are the guys that were playing bench at that time....So...6 matches bad results...expectable. Sadly this year expect at least 6/7/8 more loses and maybe 5/6 wins(they will come we are far better than the other last teams that for sure).

As for local rugby at least in URBA they can go and suck a bag of ****. Making players choose between Pladar or their teams...pffff.

Bottom line, be patient, in 3 years we´ll have a national squad that is in the top 4 not just in a RWC.Meanwhile enjoy going to the stadium, the cheerleaders, the mascot that looks like a dog instead of a Jaguar , the horrible cold weather we are going to face in Velez, its like being in a mountain up there.

I agree with your "be patient" sentiment; although the Jaguares have a great player roster on paper, we have to remember that no new team added to the Super Rugby competition, has ever had immediate success in their debut season. They probably are effected adversely by one of the worst travel schedules over the season too.

On your views on the national squad, I can definitely see advantages of the players getting so much game time together, but I think you'd get a better squad if you had at least two super rugby teams, as this would allow the next tier of players more opportunities to push the test players for their places.

 

[FNS]

I agree with your "be patient" sentiment; although the Jaguares have a great player roster on paper, we have to remember that no new team added to the Super Rugby competition, has ever had immediate success in their debut season. They probably are effected adversely by one of the worst travel schedules over the season too.

On your views on the national squad, I can definitely see advantages of the players getting so much game time together, but I think you'd get a better squad if you had at least two super rugby teams, as this would allow the next tier of players more opportunities to push the test players for their places.

It would be ideal but we dont have the $$$ or the players. Bah we got almost another team but its on Europe leagues and we cant lure them here.

I wish i had a retarded amount of money and i would make my own super rugby team with blackjack tables and hookers(futurama reference =P)

 

[Shaggy]

It would be ideal but we dont have the $$$ or the players. Bah we got almost another team but its on Europe leagues and we cant lure them here.

I wish i had a retarded amount of money and i would make my own super rugby team with blackjack tables and hookers(futurama reference =P)

Well, you definitely would have a better idea of the financial implications and player availabilityissues than I would, but, could your cut from the TV rights from Super Rugby and The Rugby Championship not fund this?

I get the lack of players issue, but you really have one "Super side" here, so if you split the internationals into two sides, you probably wouldn't have too much trouble filling the remaining slots with player from Europe and/or young emerging players, given that you also have the "play in super rugby or domestically in Argentina, or don't play for Argentina" incentive, as well.

I know I'm completely off topic here (I'm pleased my Crusaders are winning at the moment), but I think that SANZAAR will try to expand to twenty teams, just to try to get some symmetry in the comp with regard to who plays who, so a second team makes sense.

 

[Pampas]

Short answer: god knows. We're temperamental and unpredictable. I also think we shot ourselves in the foot with unrealistic expectations.

I don't think anyone expected such results. I think we were a bit unlucky here and there but we are our own worst enemy. I've said it before and i'll say it again: we are trying to play a style of rugby we are not particularly good at, we are making mistakes and paying dearly for them. When Argentine fans start asking themselves "why aren't we kicking a bit more", something is going on.
There are two questions here

1) How long till we improve
2) Are we willing to put up with bad results till then

Another thing is that i can understand the unforced errors. We are playing more open than we are used to. That's fine. Mistakes will happen as they do during any transition period. The problem i see, is that this open style apparently came at the expense of becoming sloppy on defense. That worries me. I expected our scrum to be stronger too.
Then again, i felt we played on pretty much equal terms with the chiefs and the stormers. If i'm honest, i'd even go as far as saying we lost those game (as opposed of them winning them). So the potential is there. I think we lost the plot after that. I hope the lads take this opportunity to learn

I know comparisons with the pumas are tricky, but i think they are inevitable too. When i see the amount of unforced errors, missed tackles and scrums lost, i have to assume part of the problem has to be management.

I agree 100% with you comment Cruz.

I believe that everybody, including myself, had over optimistic expectations. Nevertheless, Except the Crusaders game, and maybe the Hurricanes game to some extent, when were outplayed, we could have won the other games.
Not to mention the quality of the opponents we had (some of the best team of the whole SR, and much harder than the other SA group) and the amount of travling we have.

All in all, its not as terrible as the results show, however, its alarming to see how things the Pumas were doing fairly good, like defense and scrums, are not working today.

- - - Updated - - -

On your views on the national squad, I can definitely see advantages of the players getting so much game time together, but I think you'd get a better squad if you had at least two super rugby teams, as this would allow the next tier of players more opportunities to push the test players for their places.

No doubt that should be our next big goal, however not in a short term but in a mid/long term, because of the reasons FNS pointed out. Some of the players in Europe are closer to a farewell game than to the next WC, thus we will need to dismantle the Jaguares' squad to make 2 teams, that would leave us with 2 mediocre teams that may jeopardize the whole SR project.

 

[Bruno_ARG]

its alarming to see how things the Pumas were doing fairly good, like defense and scrums, are not working today.

That's what scares me the most Besides, I'm afraid the Pumas will play more like Jaguares do than the way they played on RWC 2015.

 

[Dark Horse]

That's what scares me the most Besides, I'm afraid the Pumas will play more like Jaguares do than the way they played on RWC 2015.

I really hope that doesn't happen. The Pumas have the right mix.