[2016 Rugby Championship] South Africa v New Zealand (08/10/2016)

[james5000]

It's actually becoming really bad for the sport. I'm a massive All Blacks fan, but I think it's time they lost a game or two... people will just stop watching this game is the ABs keep dominating it so much. We really, really could do with an ABs Vs England game now.

I absolutely dread talk like this!!!!
Clearly the AB's are currently the best team going but it won't last forever and other teams will improve, we might even decline.

Enjoy it while it lasts, I actually think us having this period of dominance will have teams really hunting to beat us and the target on our back will get even bigger maybe even increasing viewers.

Ireland won't stop celebrating for years if they finally beat us and ending the streak would make it even sweeter.

 

[nzlizard]

Really want us to beat Aus and get that win streak record, that would cap the year of.

Couple of key things out of the game.

TJP can replace Smith, not a lot if anything lost.

ALB looks like the future of the 13 jersey, Crotty keeps on delivering.

Our locks are sub human.

Naholo needs to stay injury free, while he is deadly he looked very rusty (as you would expect) and now needs game time to show us what he can do.

Starting to get a few starters in the backline who can truly play a few positions, while they are specialists in theirs the versatility of them is fantastic.

 

[KeyboardWorrier]

Not being cocky, they're going to flatten the Wallabies at Eden Park.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Never mind the wallabies, I reckon they'll put three figures up against Italy in November, unless they field a seriously weakened second XV. Could be a record "tier 1" defeat and enhance calls to give up on Italy as a project. I'm just releived Scotland don't have them this year.

They do seem to have stepped on since the Welsh series but I'll be dismayed if the NH sides don't claim a few SH scalps in the next couple of months. With much of the SH going AWOL the NH needs to step up for the sake of the sport.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, fair to say that BB can play fullback!

 

[Facile]

First up hats off to Larksea (again, this is getting to be a habit) I was genuinely worried before this match that our midfield defence was going to be a worry. I wondered if we would need Fekitoa to harden up the spine in the midfield.
Hands up, I was wrong. Fekitoa was not needed at all and may now be on his way to the UK.

NINE TRIES TO NONE.
Has the world stopped and give in reverse.????
This was in the Republic.
I just didn't think it was possible.

The ANC have a lot to answer for; racist political quotas for sports teams are not acceptable and contributing countries should now be engaging sanctions against South Africa until they drop this nonsense.
SA is a proud rugby nation and they don't deserve to be hampered in this manner.
My heart goes out to the Japie fans, this is not a result that bears contemplation.

@The Jones Boy

You are by quite some distance one of the worst posters on these boards.

Your over the top modest posts displays your stupidity and eagerness to try be 'diplomatic' and wanting to be a 'good bloke'. It's impossible for you to make a decent pre-match analysis because you're too busy trying to act like a 'great modest kiwi' rather than actually processing the information and evidence at hand to get an educated well rounded opinion. You are full of euphemisms and BS and ramblings about irrelevant history.

It's embarrassing and make for awful cringe worthy reading. One of the worst was that Welsh prediction you made in the first test series in NZ. Predicting they could beat the All Blacks. Where is your head at? Really.

 

[welshglory]

Never mind the wallabies, I reckon they'll put three figures up against Italy in November, unless they field a seriously weakened second XV. Could be a record "tier 1" defeat and enhance calls to give up on Italy as a project. I'm just releived Scotland don't have them this year.

They do seem to have stepped on since the Welsh series but I'll be dismayed if the NH sides don't claim a few SH scalps in the next couple of months. With much of the SH going AWOL the NH needs to step up for the sake of the sport.

The most depressing thing from a Welsh perspective is the fact that they literally looked like they couldn't have done any better, they put everything out there. The Allblacks were in cruise mode throughout the series, they were pretty sloppy compared to usual standards

 

[Sailor Pete]

What's Gone Wrong...?

Hi guys,

I've been lurking in the shadows of your forum for some time now and really enjoy the level of conversation that abounds.

So after the Springboks humiliating defeat last night, I decided to register, to not only show my appreciation for the level of humility and modesty displayed AB’s and their coaching staff (winning graciously is as big as winning), but also to add my sixpence worth .

The Boks loss this past Saturday is of course not our worst loss. That accolade goes to the loss at the hands of England, a 53 â€" 3 drubbing. Australia also nailed us 49 â€" 0. What makes this loss so significant for South Africa is that we’re not so sure the coaching staff will be able to get this team back on the horse â€" so to speak.

A glancing analysis of the Springboks reveals a team at sixes and sevens with itself. We have no attacking strategy. We have no defensive strategy. Our ball skills are shocking. Our fitness levels have been exposed (we’re substituting five minutes into the second half), and our command of the set pieces is none existent. You just can’t expect to win without getting the basics right. The win in Pretoria a fortnight ago, came down to one player â€" a hired gun as it were, Morne Steyn, but if we can’t get him to within range of the poles, what good is he? None as it turned out.

Alastair Coetzee has a lot to answer for, but not as much as SARU, who in turn are pandering to the political desires of a government hell bent on enforcing transformation from the top down as opposed to from the bottom up! Which is why Coetzee is there â€" because as sure as God made little green apples, it’s not because of his coaching ability and competence. Ask me, I’m a Western Province / Stormer supporter with seats (that have been in my family for more than sixty years) half way up the grandstand, on the halfway line at Newlands, and had to tolerate Coetzee as the coach of my Super Rugby team, with nothing to show for it.

To be fair though, the Springboks downward spiral started way back in 2007, post World Cup. We should have started then already with our succession planning, but we didn’t. We held onto our ‘experienced’ players for way too long denying serious talent the opportunity to shine on the international stage, and fired our World Cup winning coach and replaced him with Pieter de Villiers who was described by the Australians as a part time coach, full time comedian, but he fitted the governments transformation policy that was being forced on the Springboks…. Winning for him was more important than planning â€" and now we’re paying the price.

The only way forward, would be for SARU to man up and appoint a coach with foreign experience and give him carte blanche with no political interference. He must be allowed to appoint his own coaching staff, medical staff, and squad. (The last Springbok coach that had that kind of power, was Nick Mallet and he currently shares the record for most wins on the trot with Steve Hansen), and finally unconditional buy in from the provincial coaches - then, only then, can we hope to see a Springbok team reminiscent of those able to keep the All Blacks, Wallabies and England honest.

Sorry for the long post

Cheers Peter

 

[Facile]

This result goes to show what a great job Heyneke Meyer was doing keeping together a sinking ship. There's a reason why Steve Hansen holds him in high regard.

 

[welshglory]

Meyer had a lot more experienced key players at his disposal. I don't think he was all that much either.

 

[Facile]

Meyer had a lot more experienced key players at his disposal. I don't think he was all that much either.

AC's conservative approach to Rugby is toxic.

 

[TheOvalBall]

Hi guys,

I've been lurking in the shadows of your forum for some time now and really enjoy the level of conversation that abounds.

So after the Springboks humiliating defeat last night, I decided to register, to not only show my appreciation for the level of humility and modesty displayed AB's and their coaching staff (winning graciously is as big as winning), but also to add my sixpence worth .

The Boks loss this past Saturday is of course not our worst loss. That accolade goes to the loss at the hands of England, a 53 – 3 drubbing. Australia also nailed us 49 – 0. What makes this loss so significant for South Africa is that we're not so sure the coaching staff will be able to get this team back on the horse – so to speak.

A glancing analysis of the Springboks reveals a team at sixes and sevens with itself. We have no attacking strategy. We have no defensive strategy. Our ball skills are shocking. Our fitness levels have been exposed (we're substituting five minutes into the second half), and our command of the set pieces is none existent. You just can't expect to win without getting the basics right. The win in Pretoria a fortnight ago, came down to one player – a hired gun as it were, Morne Steyn, but if we can't get him to within range of the poles, what good is he? None as it turned out.

Alastair Coetzee has a lot to answer for, but not as much as SARU, who in turn are pandering to the political desires of a government hell bent on enforcing transformation from the top down as opposed to from the bottom up! Which is why Coetzee is there – because as sure as God made little green apples, it's not because of his coaching ability and competence. Ask me, I'm a Western Province / Stormer supporter with seats (that have been in my family for more than sixty years) half way up the grandstand, on the halfway line at Newlands, and had to tolerate Coetzee as the coach of my Super Rugby team, with nothing to show for it.

To be fair though, the Springboks downward spiral started way back in 2007, post World Cup. We should have started then already with our succession planning, but we didn't. We held onto our 'experienced' players for way too long denying serious talent the opportunity to shine on the international stage, and fired our World Cup winning coach and replaced him with Pieter de Villiers who was described by the Australians as a part time coach, full time comedian, but he fitted the governments transformation policy that was being forced on the Springboks…. Winning for him was more important than planning – and now we're paying the price.

The only way forward, would be for SARU to man up and appoint a coach with foreign experience and give him carte blanche with no political interference. He must be allowed to appoint his own coaching staff, medical staff, and squad. (The last Springbok coach that had that kind of power, was Nick Mallet and he currently shares the record for most wins on the trot with Steve Hansen), and finally unconditional buy in from the provincial coaches - then, only then, can we hope to see a Springbok team reminiscent of those able to keep the All Blacks, Wallabies and England honest.

Sorry for the long post

Cheers Peter

Welcome Peter.
I've been saying for a while now, that Bok Rugby died straight after the 2007 World Cup win. It's never really been the same again.

 

[Facile]

Welcome Peter.
I've been saying for a while now, that Bok Rugby died straight after the 2007 World Cup win. It's never really been the same again.

South Africa's conservative approach to rugby was never truly sustainable for a long period and was always going to become dated once the game continued to progress and the lethal aspects of the All Blacks game was honed and executed consistently. England realized that the conservative approach is too difficult to sustain and leads to less success and have moved away from it and developed other areas on their game. South Africa are facing a huge identity crisis.

You would have thought the Lions provided a good platform to develop a new look South African team that could play running expansive rugby and get Spring Bok rugby moving forward.

 

[petite]

South Africa's conservative approach to rugby was never truly sustainable for a long period and was always going to become dated once the game continued to progress and the lethal aspects of the All Blacks game was honed and executed consistently. England realized that the conservative approach is too difficult to sustain and leads to less success and have moved away from it and developed other areas on their game. South Africa are facing a huge identity crisis.

You would have thought the Lions provided a good platform to develop a new look South African team that could play running expansive rugby and get Spring Bok rugby moving forward.

yep argentina have done so.. the results are not there yet but at least we moved past away the defensive/ kicking game. i sometimes miss our defence but in the end its the only way to progress.

 

[The Jones Boy]

@The Jones Boy

You are by quite some distance one of the worst posters on these boards.

Your over the top modest posts displays your stupidity and eagerness to try be 'diplomatic' and wanting to be a 'good bloke'. It's impossible for you to make a decent pre-match analysis because you're too busy trying to act like a 'great modest kiwi' rather than actually processing the information and evidence at hand to get an educated well rounded opinion. You are full of euphemisms and BS and ramblings about irrelevant history.

It's embarrassing and make for awful cringe worthy reading. One of the worst was that Welsh prediction you made in the first test series in NZ. Predicting they could beat the All Blacks. Where is your head at? Really.

TROLL ALERT
Is that you Kiwi masquerading under different flag.
You have 5 posts to your name but you are referring to posts from 6-8 months ago.
Why not call yourself transparent instead.
Supporting Heineken meyer?
He also had a difficult task on his plate but as other posters have presented clearly his style was never going to win anything.

Furthermore, Mr ill informed, I marched against the racist tour of the Boks back in 1980-81, and I'm proud of that, but I didn't do it to see reverse racism take hold courtesy of the ANC as they seek retribution for old scores.
The best players should be chosen regardless of colour, ethnicity, creed or religion.

You are a boring troll with serious emotional issues, and goodbye.

 

[Facile]

TROLL ALERT
Is that you Kiwi masquerading under different flag.
You have 5 posts to your name but you are referring to posts from 6-8 months ago.
Why not call yourself transparent instead.
Supporting Heineken meyer?
He also had a difficult task on his plate but as other posters have presented clearly his style was never going to win anything.

Furthermore, Mr ill informed, I marched against the racist tour of the Boks back in 1980-81, and I'm proud of that, but I didn't do it to see reverse racism take hold courtesy of the ANC as they seek retribution for old scores.
The best players should be chosen regardless of colour, ethnicity, creed or religion.

You are a boring troll with serious emotional issues, and goodbye.

Whatever all that means my post hits home and nails you on the head.

Good luck coming up with more boll0cks in your next hollow ramblings about how it'll be a close game vs Italy or something silly. Had enough of reading your garbage and most people are bored of your over the top it's insulting "modesty". Here's an idea - Use your brain and form a real opinion or just be quiet.

 

[TheOvalBall]

TROLL ALERT
Is that you Kiwi masquerading under different flag.
You have 5 posts to your name but you are referring to posts from 6-8 months ago.
Why not call yourself transparent instead.
Supporting Heineken meyer?
He also had a difficult task on his plate but as other posters have presented clearly his style was never going to win anything.

Furthermore, Mr ill informed, I marched against the racist tour of the Boks back in 1980-81, and I'm proud of that, but I didn't do it to see reverse racism take hold courtesy of the ANC as they seek retribution for old scores.
The best players should be chosen regardless of colour, ethnicity, creed or religion.

You are a boring troll with serious emotional issues, and goodbye.

Speaking of which. Why not flower bomb any future Springbok visits in NZ ?
Just kidding. I don't care if that 80-81, or this current team is picked on racial bias. Flower bombing is unacceptable.

Boycotting games is the way to go. The pockets of the organisers feel it the most, and even they need to realise this rubbish cannot go on. The ANC clearly only have their agenda in mind, and have no interest in the game of rugby.

 

[Sailor Pete]

yep argentina have done so.. the results are not there yet but at least we moved past away the defensive/ kicking game. i sometimes miss our defence but in the end its the only way to progress.

South Africa's challenge with the defensive kicking game, lies in the location of two very successful provincial unions, namely the Bulls and the Lions. Both these unions are located at 1800m (6000 ft) above sea level and it was nothing for the flyhalves in the 1970's and 80's to be slotting that big ol' leather ball through posts from 10m inside the oppositions half – unheard of in the rest of the world. And therein lay the problem. Both the Bulls and the Lions and to a lesser extent the Cheetahs, made up the numbers of Springbok rugby in those days, and the Springbok game plan was developed around those players. It was successful and we stuck with it. It's no coincidence that the '95 world cup final was played at Ellis Park in Johannesburg. Yes the size of the stadium was one reason, seating 63000 people was impressive and made SARU a lot of money, but being at altitude meant that all Boks needed to do was make sure they got into the final and get Joel Stransky within firing distance of the poles... the rest is history.

We soldiered on with this style, and much to the irritation and exasperation of our test opponents we won. We admitted it wasn't pretty, but we won and we liked winning.

Then things started to change; we were still winning, but the margins were shrinking. Then we started to lose. First to the All Blacks, then to the Wallabies, then to England, then to the other home sides Ireland, Wales then Scotland. Finally the wheels fell off and we went down to Japan… That was so bad for some of us back home, that rumors of South Africa throwing the game so as to grow interest in Rugby ahead of the next world cup in Japan did the rounds.. we were clutching at straws.. Of course it didn't help that we lost to the All Blacks in the semi final by only 2 points – a game we should have won had Habana not been carded for a stupid knock down with 30 minutes to go…

The point I'm trying to make, is that this defensive kicking game is so entrenched in South African rugby, that even the coastal sides (Sharks and Stormers) had to use it, but being at sea level, it didn't work, so the Sharks and Stormers used an adapted expansive kicking game.. Confused..? I bet you are. Now imagine you're a center from the Stormers standing next to a flyhalf from the Bulls / Lions.. You've no idea how he's going to react when put under pressure… His training is completely different to yours. What South Africa needs, is a national game plan and the coaches to coach it.

 

[TheOvalBall]

South Africa's challenge with the defensive kicking game, lies in the location of two very successful provincial unions, namely the Bulls and the Lions. Both these unions are located at 1800m (6000 ft) above sea level and it was nothing for the flyhalves in the 1970's and 80's to be slotting that big ol' leather ball through posts from 10m inside the oppositions half – unheard of in the rest of the world. And therein lay the problem. Both the Bulls and the Lions and to a lesser extent the Cheetahs, made up the numbers of Springbok rugby in those days, and the Springbok game plan was developed around those players. It was successful and we stuck with it. It's no coincidence that the '95 world cup final was played at Ellis Park in Johannesburg. Yes the size of the stadium was one reason, seating 63000 people was impressive and made SARU a lot of money, but being at altitude meant that all Boks needed to do was make sure they got into the final and get Joel Stransky within firing distance of the poles... the rest is history.

We soldiered on with this style, and much to the irritation and exasperation of our test opponents we won. We admitted it wasn't pretty, but we won and we liked winning.

Then things started to change; we were still winning, but the margins were shrinking. Then we started to lose. First to the All Blacks, then to the Wallabies, then to England, then to the other home sides Ireland, Wales then Scotland. Finally the wheels fell off and we went down to Japan… That was so bad for some of us back home, that rumors of South Africa throwing the game so as to grow interest in Rugby ahead of the next world cup in Japan did the rounds.. we were clutching at straws.. Of course it didn't help that we lost to the All Blacks in the semi final by only 2 points – a game we should have won had Habana not been carded for a stupid knock down with 30 minutes to go…

The point I'm trying to make, is that this defensive kicking game is so entrenched in South African rugby, that even the coastal sides (Sharks and Stormers) had to use it, but being at sea level, it didn't work, so the Sharks and Stormers used an adapted expansive kicking game.. Confused..? I bet you are. Now imagine you're a center from the Stormers standing next to a flyhalf from the Bulls / Lions.. You've no idea how he's going to react when put under pressure… His training is completely different to yours. What South Africa needs, is a national game plan and the coaches to coach it.

I don't know. I kind of like it that SA have a variety of ways to play the game. The problem is the conditioning and skills. I would be bored to death if i was living in NZ and they only have one way of playing, even if it means winning so much. I'm a firm believer in playing the game multiple ways and using all assets of the game.

 

[Sailor Pete]

I hear you... and agree with you but for one reason. With the exception of Newlands, we're no longer filling our stadiums at provincial and Super Rugby games - finals excluded. For me personally, the best games of our local season, have traditionally been against the Sharks, but more recently against the Lions, because these sides tend to play a faster more expansive game with a touch of New Zealand flare. Johan Ackerman (Lions coach) is leading the charge in this regard and Robie Fleck (Stormers coach) is following him. I may have this a bit by the balls, but Fleck was dead keen to spend time in New Zealand learning how their structures work and bring that to South Africa.

As a Star Wars fan, you will appreciate the disturbance in 'the force' and recognize the beginnings of a convergence in the alliance...

 

[Larksea]

crazy game. kinda doesn't make sense to see a springbok team play like that. I'm not going to pretend I know how to fix their problems (though I was flabbergasted Le Roux was benched, not at all interested in running the ball??) I mean I wasn't surprised to see the shots at goal or drop kick attempts but the missed and slipped tackles and giving the All Blacks so much room to run was so unlike a springbok side. The boks did have some good periods on defense where the AB's needed 15-20 phases to get over but at other times they seemed to wade through defenders like they were training at 50% But the killer was the space they gave the AB's. You cant sit back, let the AB's come to you and tackle them 1 on 1. The defense just wasn't urgent enough outside of their 22.

For the All Blacks.

They started slow, for a while it kinda looked like they had a short week and jet lag from the long trip to Argentina. Some of the stuff they were pushing wasn't working. Some silly handling mistakes and some of the basic skills let them down.

But they shook it off, to be fair the boks kinda allowed them to shake it off. They were given some space and some gaps and they started to hit them. I think at that stage the ABs could see gaps opening and all they had to do was be patient. A bit of patients came and the tries started.

I thought the All Blacks scrum was brilliant. But I think one thing we should learn from the last two games is that even when we have a strong scrum we don't really benefit that much by forcing opposition into a scrimmaging battle. I think packs like the boks or Argentinians would rather stay in one spot on the field and do scrum practice than have to chase us around the field and defend multiple phases. Scrums basically allows them to rest. If we have a strong scrum its a bonus but its more important to get their forwards scrambling.

Our Locks are insane, I think Whitelock & Retalick are both individually and as a pair the best locks NZ has ever produced. And the question must be asked, has their ever been a more complete Lock in the history of the game to Brodie Retalick? His work on defense in both the amount of ground he can cover, gaps he fills and physicality he has, in the air, carrying the ball through the line and linking with the backs? His game is quite simply phenomenal. He was my man of the match and I think he is our front runner for IRB player of the year again.

Our back Row was ok, Kaino had a relatively quite time while the game was still a bit of an arm wrestle, I doubt he's over that injury. Read was very good, he hit the line with some nice straight lines and good offloads. Todd worked hard but did make a couple of mistakes and got pulled early, sure wasn't a bad performance from him. Squire had a pretty awesome cameo and showed off his running game. He needed a good performance my concern is that what he has done well is really that wide running game/link player role. Neither he or Dixon have really fronted on the defensive line like Kaino or Sam Cane do, add Retalick to that list as well.

Perenara was very good again, another great experience for him and confidence builder. His pass may not be as good as Smith's at its best but he does seem to get the ball out faster than smith and of course he has a great combination going with Barrett.

Only real talking point for Barrett is again the goal kicking. Without a doubt the best 10 in the world right now outside of the goal kicking. We just have to back him to improve. I still think Eddie Jones is planning to drag the AB's into a tight game which would be decided by kicking penalties. We are yet to see if England are good enough to do that but that has to be seen as the chink in the Armour right now.

Another Crotty like performance at 12, Mr. Reliable.

Keep that part simple so we can Discuss ALB. This kid has done more on attack in 3-4 games than Fekitoa has done in 3 years. At times he seemed to just wade through defenders, hes hitting gaps, offloading, pressuring kicks, doing well on defense he is the works right now. Its hard not to get so hyped about his potential. Crazy to see a guy who seems like he has been earmarked as an all black from like 14 years old or something like that make such an impact so early. Going to be tricky to manage him, I still think hes too young to just start every test match. he hasn't even had a full super rugby campaign as a starting player. Only got the chance to be a regular when Ngatai was injured this year. He wasn't as brilliant as Ngatai was for the chiefs but it was the first time he looked seriously good at super rugby level and showed genuine potential. Usually when blooding test mid-fielders for the All Blacks its about getting them up to speed, being patient and hoping they learn from their mistakes and gather experience. With ALB its more about keeping him fresh and keeping his feet on the ground, so far he has in a way been revolutionary in terms of what we have come to expect from a 13. he is giving opposition teams something else to worry about. When hes not scoring tries hes creating them...

I thought this game was one of the more complete back three performances for a while, Ben Smith was brilliant as ever, just another trademark performance from him.
Naholo looked deadly, still a bit rusty from a his injury break but I think people should see what a massive gap there is between him and Savea. In general recently Savea gets lucky sometimes. Most of the time hes just kinda there and not really in good form... Naholo makes stuff happen. When hes fit hes the only person on the field faster than Barrett. It still kinda feels like he is still finding his feet at test level because of the injury interruptions he has had. When he gets his fittness up and strings a few games together... Look out.
Dagg is fitting in well on the wing. I cant believe it has taken the selectors this long to realize how much better off we are just keeping Smith at 15. put your best 15 at 15, its really that simple. I would say without a doubt moving to 14 has helped Dagg. he gets to focus a bit more, wing is a bit more focused Role. he is mostly sticking to that side of the field, keeping it simple and making good decisions. This is the best we have seen Dagg since his peak way back in ~2011. its not spectacular hes just doing a good job, keeping the play going and/or finishing well. I did spit tacks when he ran in his first try. He could have got that 6-10m closer to the posts, basically ran it out towards the sideline! WTF! That was not helping his kicker out on a tough day. I think someone had a word to him after that because the next one he made an extra effort to run it closer.

overall a dominant performance. Entertaining to watch but on the flip side it was as much about the boks being well off their game as it was the All Blacks being very good. It didn't look like a springbok team playing with purpose, leadership or plan. maybe this will be a turning point for them. it has to be, this is a significant result. had we kicked goals better the score would have been closer to 70 points. This game was 9 trys to 0 ?!