[2016 Rugby Championship] New Zealand v Argentina (10/09/2016)

[The Jones Boy]

Larksea is right.
The qualitative difference in how the Pumas took it to the AB's was impressive. For 55-60 minutes the AB's were working hard to maintain an equilibrium on defence and that was never the case in the first 2 RC matches against the Wallabies.
The key difference was that although the Wallabies tired in the last quarter of both games, they never ran out of steam.
The Pumas did run out of steam.
Once they became more static then the pace of Barrett, Ben Smith and Perenara in particular began to cause monumental issues for the Pumas so the scoreboard went into overdrive.

The All Blacks are all about raising the intensity for 80 minutes and keeping it there. Having a world class bench helps enormously.
For three quarters of the game the Pumas were matching the AB's toe to toe.
The last quarter their fitness dropped away and when the fitness falls off so does everything else by degrees. The intensity, the tackling, the focus, the accuracy all suffer when fitness drops.
It was a harsh last quarter 20 minutes for the Pumas when the previous 60 minutes had been so effectively contested.

 

[smartcooky]

For some reason, a very entertaining and decent performance from us renders a smaller point difference than an appalling display from Australia. I could understand that if Australia were the team of the century and we were a mess, but that ain't the case. When i see what the media is saying i can't help wandering, are we being pity****ed? I never would have thought so, but again, Aus loses by 34 points and they are a disaster, we lose by 35 and some people praise us...

ignore the scoreline, watching how the game unfolded in particular the first half. Argentina caused genuine issues for the NZ defense that we probably haven't seen since 2013 when Tuilungi went on a rampage. Got us scrambling and made large chunks of ground, caused our defense to streatch, caused Dane Coles and Aaron Smith to get pulled early and they crossed for a couple of trys. almost a 3rd.

Australia went 160min without really looking like they were a threat to our tryline.

I think if you compared the stats like All Black Missed tackles and opposition like breaks in the Aussie games compared to this game it would reflect why this was seen as a positive effort by Argentina.

When I saw these two posts, and that last comment, I thought it might be interesting to actually do that comparison

[TEXTAREA]Stats Comparison for All Blacks v Australia R1 and All Blacks v Argentina R3

All Blacks Australia Argentina

Possession
55 - 45
45 - 55

Territory
60 - 40
52 - 48

Running Metres
839 - 307
506 - 408

Clean Breaks
22 - 2
12 - 6

Defenders Beaten
40 - 13
25 - 12

Offloads
28 - 6
16 - 19

Tackles attempted/missed (%)
133/13 (90%) - 142/40 (73%)
152/12 (92%) - 114/25 (78%)

Kicks/Passes/Runs
27/241/175 - 22/139/107
14/160/115 - 13/159/143

Rucks/Won (%)
98/92 (94%) - 90/85 (94%)
83/79 (95%) - 112/107 (96%)

Turnovers conceded
20 - 22
14 - 8

Penalties & Free Kicks Conceded
9 - 8
9 - 14[/TEXTAREA]

I have highlighted in red, those stats which I believe are the most significant. I would just love to be able to get my hands on the actual raw stats sheets from the games, and have a look at the comparisons at the 50 minute mark. I reckon it would show that Los Pumas were all over bus in just about every department. A lot of their ""bad" stats would have come in that last 30 minutes

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

ignore the scoreline, watching how the game unfolded in particular the first half. Argentina caused genuine issues for the NZ defense that we probably haven't seen since 2013 when Tuilungi went on a rampage. Got us scrambling and made large chunks of ground, caused our defense to streatch, caused Dane Coles and Aaron Smith to get pulled early and they crossed for a couple of trys. almost a 3rd.

Australia went 160min without really looking like they were a threat to our tryline.

I think if you compared the stats like All Black Missed tackles and opposition like breaks in the Aussie games compared to this game it would reflect why this was seen as a positive effort by Argentina.

Thanks for the comment but i guess i didn't make my point clear enough. My point is, precisely, that despite having all those good stats, we did not manage to transform those offloads/clean breaks/ etc into points (or more points when compared to Australia)! That is a serious problem. That is why i mentioned effectiveness.
That is why i am very anxious and curious about this weekends game.

Another conclusion of the last games from Pumas (and Jaguares to a certain extent) is that we've improved our offense a lot, but we have done so at the expense of missing a lot of soft tackles.
Defense used to be one of our strong points. Teams used to kick to the post instead of going for a short line/scrum when the played against us because they knew it was a risky move. Now teams are going for lines and scrums. That speaks volumes about our defense.

I know it's not an easy job, but i sincerely do not see why we need to sacrifice our tackling to improve offense.

Another comment about the game. Most people are comparing the first 40/50 minutes of both Aus and Arg vs New Zealand. I propose another thing: compare the last 40. Australia's second half was better, much better than Argentina's. The game was over by then so people probably don't focus on that (you lose interest after game is decided score wise), but to be fair, the All Blacks are not the kind of team that lifts the foot off the gas pedal, so i am inclined to believe it was more Australia raising their game and not the ABs slowing down (probably a bit of both, still).

@smartcooky : which website do you use to get all those stats? Thanks in advance.

 

[smartcooky]

@smartcooky : which website do you use to get all those stats? Thanks in advance.

http://www.espn.com.au/rugby/fixtures


Search through the calendar to find the game you want, click on the score and presto!

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Thank you sir. Made my day.

 

[CocoPampas]

My bad for not expresing fully. Off course a restriction must be in place but we need a mix system like 2x1 or something like that.

Also as i said in a topic i opened on SR sub forum, players are already being lured from PLADAR to Europe. THIS is a big big issue for the2nd franchise. Damn is an issue for jags already....

So then, we are in the same page. Hope the UAR decide to go in this direction.

 

[CocoPampas]

I see that Tomás Cubelli, who was playing for the Brumbies not the Jaguares, was selected for Los Pumas so does that mean that players playing for ANY SR franchise are eligible, or was he an exception? If such players are eligible, then trying a get a few Argentine players into other SR franchises, or even getting them into the M10 Cup might be useful. I recall Francisco Bosch making quite an impact for Manawatu a few years ago.

I think I should say that players in any SR franchise are eligible.
Although, as far as I know the rule isn't actually written anywhere.

That said, yes, the UAR should be promoting young players to play in some other SR franchise.
The question is how many young players are good enough to play SR, without considering the players that already are playing an important rol in the Jaguares. That is why I think that the spots we could get in other SR teams are only part of the solution we need.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

All Blacks Team
1. Moody
2. Coles
3. Franks
4. Retallick
5. Whitelock
6. Kaino
7. Savea
8. Read (c)
9. Smith
10. Barrett
11. Savea
12. Crotty
13. Fekitoa
14. Dagg
15. Smith

16. Parsons
17. Crockett
18. Faumaina
19. Romano
20. Todd
21. Perenara
22. Sopoaga
23. Lienert-Brown

Standard starting XV (good to see Ardie get a run out) but there's a few talking points on the bench. Parsons over Taylor? Romano over Tuipulotu (again)? Todd over Squire or Dixon? Good to see Sopoaga on the bench over Cruden though, I think he'll offer significantly more impact.

Edit:

Wrong thread, my bad.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I see that Tomás Cubelli, who was playing for the Brumbies not the Jaguares, was selected for Los Pumas so does that mean that players playing for ANY SR franchise are eligible, or was he an exception?

To be honest, it's as if they are making it up as they go. As far as i understand, players playing for SR franchises are eligible for the Pumas, but, for example, you can play for other UAR teams if you play elsewhere. Example: juan imhoff, who plays for Racing is not eligible for the pumas, but he was eligible for our sevens team in Rio.

 

[LeanTaladro]

To be honest, it's as if they are making it up as they go. As far as i understand, players playing for SR franchises are eligible for the Pumas, but, for example, you can play for other UAR teams if you play elsewhere. Example: juan imhoff, who plays for Racing is not eligible for the pumas, but he was eligible for our sevens team in Rio.

It's all about the calendar. As long as they have the same calendar, they can play. For example, Cubelli doesn't have any trouble by playing at this moment for the Pumas because the Brumbies are resting. But Ayerza can't leave Leicester because they are playing and the club wouldn't let him play for the Pumas.

Yes, they do have some doubts, citing Imhoff for the 7s was weird, but I think they are doing a good job with these situations. It would be nice to have other players that don't have the chance to play for Jaguares, playing with other SR franchises. I heard Galarza wants to play for the Pumas as well but at the moment he can't leave. If in one or two years there's no room for him in Jaguares, having him in another SR franchise would be ideal.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

It's all about the calendar. As long as they have the same calendar, they can play. For example, Cubelli doesn't have any trouble by playing at this moment for the Pumas because the Brumbies are resting. But Ayerza can't leave Leicester because they are playing and the club wouldn't let him play for the Pumas.

From what i've read (several times) that is not true. Regardless of the calendar, only Argentine SR players can play for the pumas. Even if Racing allowed him to take a leave, as things stand today, he wouldn't be eligible.

http://www.losandes.com.ar/article/...s-por-no-pertenecer-a-la-franquicia-de-la-uar
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1860390-jaguares-o-pumas-el-desafio-de-un-plantel-con-dos-identidades

 

[LeanTaladro]

Yeah I know, what I was trying to explain is that the decision of elegibility was made because of the calendar. Maybe I missed that part

 

[smartcooky]

From what i've read (several times) that is not true. Regardless of the calendar, only Argentine SR players can play for the pumas. Even if Racing allowed him to take a leave, as things stand today, he wouldn't be eligible.

http://www.losandes.com.ar/article/...s-por-no-pertenecer-a-la-franquicia-de-la-uar
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1860390-jaguares-o-pumas-el-desafio-de-un-plantel-con-dos-identidades

So, how did Cubelli get the nod for last Saturday night?

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

All Blacks Team
1. Moody
2. Coles
3. Franks
4. Retallick
5. Whitelock
6. Kaino
7. Savea
8. Read (c)
9. Smith
10. Barrett
11. Savea
12. Crotty
13. Fekitoa
14. Dagg
15. Smith

16. Parsons
17. Crockett
18. Faumaina
19. Romano
20. Todd
21. Perenara
22. Sopoaga
23. Lienert-Brown

Standard starting XV (good to see Ardie get a run out) but there's a few talking points on the bench. Parsons over Taylor? Romano over Tuipulotu (again)? Todd over Squire or Dixon? Good to see Sopoaga on the bench over Cruden though, I think he'll offer significantly more impact.

Edit:

Wrong thread, my bad.

Cruden injured a hamstring at training which is why Sopoaga is on the bench. I don't really see why Sopoaga would offer any more impact, to be honest.

Cruden created the most tries in Super Rugby (or at least he was well ahead of the pack prior to his injury), I think he's a great impact player.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Yeah I know, what I was trying to explain is that the decision of elegibility was made because of the calendar. Maybe I missed that part

I don't believe that is the case and evidence strongly suggests it is not. Worst case they would be eligible and just couldn't join.
UAR is not making players outside of SR ineligible because of calendar reasons. They are doing so in an attempt to keep them playing for Jaguares.

So, how did Cubelli get the nod for last Saturday night?

He is Argentine and he plays for a SR franchise (doesn't have to be Jaguares). When i wrote "only Argentine SR players" i meant Argentine nationality and SR franchise (doesn't have to be Jaguares).
Actually, players playing for other Argentine teams are eligible too. Let's just say: Argentine player + Arg team or SR franchise.

 

[argie]

Also Tomás Leonardi from Sunwolves is elegible to be a Puma again, if the Head Coach needs him.

 

[KeyboardWorrier]

Let's see how this goes then.

I expect;

-Pumas to be overcome with emotion early on (during National Anthem) and lose a lot of energy as a result
-Close scrappy game for first half hour because playing field isn't wide enough
-All Blacks dominate second half as usual
-All Blacks 30 - Pumas - 12

 

[KeyboardWorrier]

And apparently I can't read dates.