[2016 RBS Six Nations] Round 3: England vs. Ireland (27/02/2016)

[Ragey Erasmus]

Was Lawes dropped for injury/fitness reasons? If so it's a bit worrying we are bringing back someone not at full fitness to replace someone else who is injured. Surely we had other locks available?

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Was Lawes dropped for injury/fitness reasons? If so it's a bit worrying we are bringing back someone not at full fitness to replace someone else who is injured. Surely we had other locks available?

I thought Lawes was just dropped because we're not using a 6-2 backs forwards split. He was always kind of an extra, we've just dropped the extra.

As far as I know he's fit.

 

[spartan32]

It's quite encouraging that England strength in the forwards means we can drop someone like Lawes for a back. If we call Itoje a lock that gives us 4 quality lads covering that position. There is some real strength in depth growing and some serious impact benches forming, and with the last 30 becoming more and more critical at international level that's a very good position to be in. For the first time in what seems like forever I'm starting to feel just a little bit positive about where we are heading.

 

[Willodell100]

It's quite encouraging that England strength in the forwards means we can drop someone like Lawes for a back. If we call Itoje a lock that gives us 4 quality lads covering that position. There is some real strength in depth growing and some serious impact benches forming, and with the last 30 becoming more and more critical at international level that's a very good position to be in. For the first time in what seems like forever I'm starting to feel just a little bit positive about where we are heading.

I count 8:

Joe Lauchbury
George Kruis
Courtney Laws
Mario Itoje
Dave Attwood
Ed Slater
Graham Kitchener
Geoff Parling

All absolutely class in my book. We are extremely rich in high class second rowers.

 

[spartan32]

I count 8:

Joe Lauchbury
George Kruis
Courtney Laws
Mario Itoje
Dave Attwood
Ed Slater
Graham Kitchener
Geoff Parling

All absolutely class in my book. We are extremely rich in high class second rowers.

Quite right, and it's a damn good thing

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I count 8:

Joe Lauchbury
George Kruis
Courtney Laws
Mario Itoje
Dave Attwood
Ed Slater
Graham Kitchener
Geoff Parling

All absolutely class in my book. We are extremely rich in high class second rowers.

Hold on, none of those would be remotely near a World XV, while Kruis might, on very recent form, be in with a shout of a Lions spot. But he's no AWJ.

Launch hasn't been near his best in ages due to injury, while Lawes has been some way off his for quite a while. Itoje is unproven internationally and a 6 in my book anyway. England have been moderate for a while, but even so no coach has seen fit to cap Slater or Kitchener. In my book Attwood has been unlucky not to rack up more caps, the polar opposite applying to Parling.

All decent players for sure, but none with the international stature of an Ackford, Dooley or even Shaw, let alone Johnson. Our 7th choice could probably top any other country, but the likes of Retallick have raised the bar and set the standards we should be aspiring to.

 

[Willodell100]

Hold on, none of those would be remotely near a World XV, while Kruis might, on very recent form, be in with a shout of a Lions spot. But he's no AWJ.

Launch hasn't been near his best in ages due to injury, while Lawes has been some way off his for quite a while. Itoje is unproven internationally and a 6 in my book anyway. England have been moderate for a while, but even so no coach has seen fit to cap Slater or Kitchener. In my book Attwood has been unlucky not to rack up more caps, the polar opposite applying to Parling.

All decent players for sure, but none with the international stature of an Ackford, Dooley or even Shaw, let alone Johnson. Our 7th choice could probably top any other country, but the likes of Retallick have raised the bar and set the standards we should be aspiring to.

Ok - I never said anything about a world XV & it's a really poor basis to make your point.

Whether we have world class players in these two positions is beside the point. We do have a large pool of locks vying for squad places that are, in my humble opinion, all extremely good. Yes they aren't all world beaters but sadly not all will ever get the chance to prove it.

However now you mention a World XV I will strongly back Joe Lauchbury's case. The guy might have had his injury problems but he does it all & extremely well. An all court second rower in my mind.

More than anything though I actually don't think there are that many world class locks around at the moment. You mention Retallick & AWJ. Both have performed at a very high level for a number of years but I'm struggling after that.

Possibly Whitelock & Horwill a couple of years ago, Etzebeth is decent but after a few significant recent retirements in world rugby has left large holes that are yet to be filled.

 

[Irish boy]

On the England second row front Matt Symons is brilliant as well and Chiefs fans will agree if he was at a bigger club England squad member all day

 

[Maverick1987]

Hold on, none of those would be remotely near a World XV, while Kruis might, on very recent form, be in with a shout of a Lions spot. But he's no AWJ.

Launch hasn't been near his best in ages due to injury, while Lawes has been some way off his for quite a while. Itoje is unproven internationally and a 6 in my book anyway. England have been moderate for a while, but even so no coach has seen fit to cap Slater or Kitchener. In my book Attwood has been unlucky not to rack up more caps, the polar opposite applying to Parling.

All decent players for sure, but none with the international stature of an Ackford, Dooley or even Shaw, let alone Johnson. Our 7th choice could probably top any other country, but the likes of Retallick have raised the bar and set the standards we should be aspiring to.

Where did he say any of our locks were in a world XV ? And you can't compare eras . We have a superb crop of young locks at the moment all of whom have the potential to be called world class in the future . Why knock that ?

If the biggest problem we have with our locks at the moment is they aren't as good as Retalick then we aren't doing too badly !

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

On the England second row front Matt Symons is brilliant as well and Chiefs fans will agree if he was at a bigger club England squad member all day

Not so sure about that.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I was picking up on your comment that we're stacked with high class locks, and just making the point that we're not when you assess them by the very highest standards. A demanding measure certainly, but why shouldn't we be aiming that high?

Agree that Launch is probably the most complete of the lot, but he hasn't consistently hit his former heights after injury. I'm sure he will in time, but right now he hasn't. But even below par he's still most people's first choice.

Getting back on topic, if will be interesting whether Itoje now partners Kruis on Saturday.

 

[Saint4805]

Wonder if they will give Itoje the start in that case.

Jones seems to be airing on the side of caution in bloodying the new guys, he might bring Lawes right back in.

I'd start Maro, deffo.

My apologies if this seems arrogant but it's erring on the side of caution.

I was picking up on your comment that we're stacked with high class locks, and just making the point that we're not when you assess them by the very highest standards. A demanding measure certainly, but why shouldn't we be aiming that high?

Agree that Launch is probably the most complete of the lot, but he hasn't consistently hit his former heights after injury. I'm sure he will in time, but right now he hasn't. But even below par he's still most people's first choice.

Getting back on topic, if will be interesting whether Itoje now partners Kruis on Saturday.

Yeah yeah whatever. Just man up and admit you were off the mark by unnecessarily making reference to a World XV.

 

[Maverick1987]

I was picking up on your comment that we're stacked with high class locks, and just making the point that we're not when you assess them by the very highest standards. A demanding measure certainly, but why shouldn't we be aiming that high?

Agree that Launch is probably the most complete of the lot, but he hasn't consistently hit his former heights after injury. I'm sure he will in time, but right now he hasn't. But even below par he's still most people's first choice.

Getting back on topic, if will be interesting whether Itoje now partners Kruis on Saturday.

It's a strange situation at the moment though . Eddie has come in and some new guys are playing in new systems . It's better if we see where these players are in a year rather than now

 

[j'nuh]

I know everyone rates him, but even so I still feel people underrate Mr Berry. Being so young, especially for a lock, and not a New Zealander, he's still crafting his reputation. Players have to sustain their international place for several years before they start being recognised as world-class, so Berry's age counts against him in that respect. But more important than his reputation are his performances, and IMO, when he's fit, his performances are consistently class, which puts him in that bracket of the top players of the moment.

On the other hand, Lawes and Attwood cycle through patches of form. What they offer is obvious, and they will put in MOTM performances here and there, but they don't offer the consistent quality that Berry does. So I don't see them in the same bracket as Berry. Given how many options we have, I would be keen to look for more, i.e. Itoje sooner rather than later. I'm also keen to see more of Kruis on the international level.

 

[Peat]

I was picking up on your comment that we're stacked with high class locks, and just making the point that we're not when you assess them by the very highest standards. A demanding measure certainly, but why shouldn't we be aiming that high?

Agree that Launch is probably the most complete of the lot, but he hasn't consistently hit his former heights after injury. I'm sure he will in time, but right now he hasn't. But even below par he's still most people's first choice.

Getting back on topic, if will be interesting whether Itoje now partners Kruis on Saturday.

Words out of my mouth.

I like Lawes and think the recent criticism of him is somewhat odd, but would go for Itoje myself, as someone needs to replicate Launchbury's work at the ruck and that's not going to be Kruis or Lawes on recent evidence.

 

[profitius]

Heres the Ireland team that multiple news sites are reporting.


15. Rob Kearney
14. Andrew Trimble
13. Robbie Henshaw
12. Stuart McCloskey
11. Keith Earls
10. Johnny Sexton
9. Conor Murray
1. Jack McGrath
2. Rory Best (captain)
3. Mike Ross
4. Donnacha Ryan
5. Devin Toner
6. CJ Stander
7. Josh van der Flier
8. Jamie Heaslip


VDF and McCloskey* to make their debut. Henshaw moves to 13 which he prefers. Earls and Ross back.

I'd prefer to see Kearney replaced but its a step in the right direction from Schmidt.


* There is mention of Payne being subject to a fitness test.

 

[lynam1104]

Would be harsh (not sure if thats the right word but I'll use it) on TO'D as he has been very good but VDF is probably a good call in order to target the breakdown which Joe must feel is pretty important and we haven't been up to usual standards so far this 6N.

 

[profitius]

Would be harsh (not sure if thats the right word but I'll use it) on TO'D as he has been very good but VDF is probably a good call in order to target the breakdown which Joe must feel is pretty important and we haven't been up to usual standards so far this 6N.

Yeah a bit harsh on TOD but VDF has looked very good this season and has a higher ceiling IMO. I think he'll be told to hunt down Ford/Farrell as much as he can.

 

[munstermuffin]

Would be harsh (not sure if thats the right word but I'll use it) on TO'D as he has been very good but VDF is probably a good call in order to target the breakdown which Joe must feel is pretty important and we haven't been up to usual standards so far this 6N.

In fairness (and I'd be first to slate Schmidt over Leinster bias) he made his plans clear. Was speaking to few of lads and Schmidts views were clear.
McCloskey to start only if Payne was out. Fitness test is at 9:30 in morning.
VDF would start as TOD can be effective at 6 or 7 off bench and VDF is a pure 7 who can exploit England's lack of a 7. In Stander we've a serious ball carrier in tight to balance it all.
TOD will no doubt play big role too.

 

[Maverick1987]

Heres the Ireland team that multiple news sites are reporting.


15. Rob Kearney
14. Andrew Trimble
13. Robbie Henshaw
12. Stuart McCloskey
11. Keith Earls
10. Johnny Sexton
9. Conor Murray
1. Jack McGrath
2. Rory Best (captain)
3. Mike Ross
4. Donnacha Ryan
5. Devin Toner
6. CJ Stander
7. Josh van der Flier
8. Jamie Heaslip


VDF and McCloskey* to make their debut. Henshaw moves to 13 which he prefers. Earls and Ross back.

I'd prefer to see Kearney replaced but its a step in the right direction from Schmidt.


* There is mention of Payne being subject to a fitness test.

That looks a really good team even with the injuries . I always said this wasn't going to be as simple as some of the Irish were making out . England are in a very dangerous position where most of the press/armchair fans believe we should win. I hope Eddie has created a better environment for handling pressure otherwise we might be embarrassed