[2016 RBS Six Nations] Round 2: France vs. Ireland (13/02/2016)

[LiRFCMatt]

This was pretty embarrassing for the Irish.

Maybe that's an understatement.

They will need a big, big bounce back in the next round, cos that was just woeful.

 

[jomjom]

This was pretty embarrassing for the Irish.

Maybe that's an understatement.

They will need a big, big bounce back in the next round, cos that was just woeful.

Well considering how before the tournament London was my biggest fear, and taking into account fact our last 2 matches, I predict that this one might be a little grim! Especially if they give Italy that hiding that Jones says he wants to dish out.

 

[Chistera]

Fair play to France. Ireland (on the basis of the first 60 mins) should have put the game to bed. If it weren't for a lack of accuracy, a giant injury list, terrible conditions and some horrific refereeing calls, Ireland could have put a decent score on France. However, France stuck in the game and dominated the last 20. Ben Arous and Slimani were class when they came off the bench. I'm rooting for France for the rest of the 6N.

For the rest of the 6N, we should go with Furlong at TH for White (who actually did fairly well in the scrum when he came on), Dillane on the bench, JVdF on the bench against Italy or Scotland, Marmion to get a shot, Jackson to start (if Sexton is out), McCloskey in the centre and bring Healy, Gilroy or Ringrose into the squad. We need to try to keep the margin close against England and just put as much points on Scotland and Italy as possible to improve our rankings.

Fairly disappointing 6N for Ireland but on the basis of injuries, luck and fixtures, it's no surprise things have turned out the way they did. In fairness, a draw and a 1 point loss in the opening 2 games are fairly gut wrenching results.

Fair play to Ireland as well, it's terrible to see the best Irish players injured every time they play against France. That's not the way you want to see your team win.
We're still struggling though and some players don't seem to be cut for international level yet, we'd also need a few standout performers to lift the team. Guirado was inspiring this time, but should have been booked for his tackle on Kearney, and considering the talent available, you'd at least expect players to perform at their club level: Danty, Maestri, Bézy, Lauret... Not that the Top 14 is at the 6 Nations' level but these players are great in the Champions' cup too.
Bottom line, we're missing out two, arguably, world class players in Picamoles and Fofana. And Huget was pretty darn good when he got injured.

 

[gaston le gaff]

All thing considered age and experience of the French team is lacking, but inspiration and exuberance is not, the Irish could have easily won that game they were on top the first half and squandered a few chances, but good French defence kept them out. The second half different story France dominated and their bench was inspiring, games that close always need a little luck but these kids did very well, every challenge thrown at them will be met with dertermination and effort Noves expects and these kids may well produce. Wales could be interesting in 2 weeks.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

People are focusing on the wrong areas for me. The addition of McCloskey, Ringrose, Gilroy etc won't make a blind bit of difference if your forwards can't match up physically. I saw a game yesterday where both sides knew who had the stronger pack. The French had no structure, no control at half back (until Machenaud came on) and no of kicking game. But it didn't dent their enthusiasm because they were intent on bullying Ireland. It worked too. Tommy O' Donnell almost conceded he wasn't physically able in his body language. The backs, with no platform, were up **** creek as a result.

I'd echo the calls for McCloskey and maybe one or two younger lads but make no mistake it won't be a magic elixir. England are everything France are and more. Unless someone waves a magic wand over Henderson, POM, SOB, Henry, Ross, Moore and Healy the new lads behind the scrum will look equally clueless.

Really? I'd suggest that us dominating territory and, for the most part, posession for the first 60 minutes would suggest we had the stronger pack for that period of the game. The team tired badly as was expected and France took full advantage, well done to them as it won them the game but Ireland should have had a 10+ point lead by then. I'd live to know the amount of times we dropped the ball trying to string a simple backline move together in France's 22 because I imagine it's pretty damning. Henshaw and Payne have never unlocked a competant defence and just don't have the ability. No one is looking for a magic elixir to beat England but the team that played yesterday won't beat England so maybe we should try a few new faces and see if it brings anything. Next years 6nations side is going to look very different to this years and it's time to get working on it in the three nothing games we have remaining.

 

[JJFlash]

The game against Wales is on a Friday night, and with the roof of the Millenium Stadium probably closed, it will be an intimidating atmosphere for a relatively inexperienced French team and frankly, I can't see them winning.
Two wins from two so far is great, and their next realistic chance of a win should be in Edinburgh on March 13th.
Their last match is against an England team that will be improving with each game in the 6N and the smart money will be on England.
So if, as has been said, they can win three games, then Guy Novès should be happy.

 

[LukeFitzgerald]

Really? I'd suggest that us dominating territory and, for the most part, posession for the first 60 minutes would suggest we had the stronger pack for that period of the game. The team tired badly as was expected and France took full advantage, well done to them as it won them the game but Ireland should have had a 10+ point lead by then. I'd live to know the amount of times we dropped the ball trying to string a simple backline move together in France's 22 because I imagine it's pretty damning. Henshaw and Payne have never unlocked a competant defence and just don't have the ability. No one is looking for a magic elixir to beat England but the team that played yesterday won't beat England so maybe we should try a few new faces and see if it brings anything. Next years 6nations side is going to look very different to this years and it's time to get working on it in the three nothing games we have remaining.

Yeah completely agree that our pack had the upper hand for the first 60 mins, however our ball presentation and protection at the ruck was fairly poor.
No point chucking in a few new faces who have no experience under Schmidt in Twickenham for them to get a decent hammering. I would be high surprised if Schmidt makes any unforced changes to the team. We have 2 home games against Scotland and Italy to experiment.
Against England, we'd realistically go with:
1. McGrath
2. Best
3. Ross/Furlong
4. Toner
5. Ryan
6. Stander
7. TOD
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Sexton (Madigan if Sexton isn't fit)
11. Earls
12. Henshaw
13. Payne
14. Trimble
15. Kearney
16. Strauss
17. Healy
18. Ross/Furlong
19. Dillane
20. Ruddock
21. Marmion/Reddan
22. Madigan (Jackson if Sexton isn't fit)
23. Zebo

 

[FrenchFan]

Fair play to Ireland as well, it's terrible to see the best Irish players injured every time they play against France. That's not the way you want to see your team win.
We're still struggling though and some players don't seem to be cut for international level yet, we'd also need a few standout performers to lift the team. Guirado was inspiring this time, but should have been booked for his tackle on Kearney, and considering the talent available, you'd at least expect players to perform at their club level: Danty, Maestri, Bézy, Lauret... Not that the Top 14 is at the 6 Nations' level but these players are great in the Champions' cup too.
Bottom line, we're missing out two, arguably, world class players in Picamoles and Fofana. And Huget was pretty darn good when he got injured.

We're missing 4 if not 5. Still for a side short of many senior players they didn't panic. The newcomers have no mental bagage from the previous era.

Picamoles Fofana Huget Dulin (Parra?) are going to have to work their socks off to get back. Can't see room for Morgan Parra even with injuries to Bezy and Machenaud. Noves called Baptiste Serin barely 20 who's having a great season with Bordeaux.

Machenaud should start v Wales. He made a difference and he's long overdue to start a game. Bezy still learning will grow into it with his talent. Would like to see more of Loann Goujon at 8 was good off the bench.

No doubt Noves knew what he was doing by benching Slimani Ben Arous and Jedrasiak - what an impact they had when they came on. Maestri is under threat now from Jedrasiak. Jury still out on Lauret... Time to bring in Antoine Burban at 6 who is much better imo. Both Burban and Machenaud have been in the top 5 players in T14 over last 2 seasons and were stupidly ignored for 4 yrs.

Noves has a better idea of his starting pack - Ben Arous Guirado Slimani - Jedrasiak Flanquard - Camara and Picamoles with room for Burban and/or Goujon to take over from Chouly.

The backs division is more open. Sorting out with come with further games. It's too early.

Let's not forget this was an experimental side.

Edit: Forgot François Trinh Duc so that's 6 senior players missing

 

[munstermuffin]

People are focusing on the wrong areas for me. The addition of McCloskey, Ringrose, Gilroy etc won't make a blind bit of difference if your forwards can't match up physically. I saw a game yesterday where both sides knew who had the stronger pack. The French had no structure, no control at half back (until Machenaud came on) and no of kicking game. But it didn't dent their enthusiasm because they were intent on bullying Ireland. It worked too. Tommy O' Donnell almost conceded he wasn't physically able in his body language. The backs, with no platform, were up **** creek as a result.

I'd echo the calls for McCloskey and maybe one or two younger lads but make no mistake it won't be a magic elixir. England are everything France are and more. Unless someone waves a magic wand over Henderson, POM, SOB, Henry, Ross, Moore and Healy the new lads behind the scrum will look equally clueless.

I think scrums aside our forwards were dominant overall. And I don't know what you have against TOD but he was our most active defensive player and offered more physicality than most as the stats and watching match show. Our backs got tons of ball but had no creativity or pace. The guys mentioned add pace and creativity and an air of freshness

 

[munstermuffin]

Yeah completely agree that our pack had the upper hand for the first 60 mins, however our ball presentation and protection at the ruck was fairly poor.
No point chucking in a few new faces who have no experience under Schmidt in Twickenham for them to get a decent hammering. I would be high surprised if Schmidt makes any unforced changes to the team. We have 2 home games against Scotland and Italy to experiment.
Against England, we'd realistically go with:
1. McGrath
2. Best
3. Ross/Furlong
4. Toner
5. Ryan
6. Stander
7. TOD
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Sexton (Madigan if Sexton isn't fit)
11. Earls
12. Henshaw
13. Payne
14. Trimble
15. Kearney
16. Strauss
17. Healy
18. Ross/Furlong
19. Dillane
20. Ruddock
21. Marmion/Reddan
22. Madigan (Jackson if Sexton isn't fit)
23. Zebo

I'd agree with some but on others no.
Madigan came on yesterday and his errors showed. He kicked out on full and was nearly intercepted. Jackson is the better 10.

I'd leave Cronin at 17. Healy hasn't done well lately and ever game wasn't enough.
At 15 Kearney is a problem. Maybe Zebo won't start 15 but we need an attacker. Kearney has shown lately he offers very little now.
At 9 I think Marmion isn't going to make it and maybe Luke McGrath deserves consideration.

 

[LukeFitzgerald]

I'd agree with some but on others no.
Madigan came on yesterday and his errors showed. He kicked out on full and was nearly intercepted. Jackson is the better 10.

I'd leave Cronin at 17. Healy hasn't done well lately and ever game wasn't enough.
At 15 Kearney is a problem. Maybe Zebo won't start 15 but we need an attacker. Kearney has shown lately he offers very little now.
At 9 I think Marmion isn't going to make it and maybe Luke McGrath deserves consideration.

Yeah I'd agree with you on most of what you said. That team is my prediction for what Schmidt will pick for England, not what I'd go for btw.
In fairness, Kearney wasn't too bad yesterday. He ran some good hard lines, got over the gain line and some of his distribution was decent.
I'd say Schmidt will go for Healy over Cronin due to his size and experience in big games, even if he has played fairly poorly since the Scotland game last year.
McGrath has no experience under Schmidt in any camps and Reddan, who played well enough for this season with Leinster up until Xmas, wasn't trusted to get off the bench yesterday when we went behind to speed up the game.

 

[munstermuffin]

Yeah I'd agree with you on most of what you said. That team is my prediction for what Schmidt will pick for England, not what I'd go for btw.
In fairness, Kearney wasn't too bad yesterday. He ran some good hard lines, got over the gain line and some of his distribution was decent.
I'd say Schmidt will go for Healy over Cronin due to his size and experience in big games, even if he has played fairly poorly since the Scotland game last year.
McGrath has no experience under Schmidt in any camps and Reddan, who played well enough for this season with Leinster up until Xmas, wasn't trusted to get off the bench yesterday when we went behind to speed up the game.

I know yeah and your probably right on Healy call but it wouldn't be right.
Kearney was average yesterday but he offers nothing much over alternatives. I think our best attacking option now is Zebo at 15 but defensively could be exposed but most complete by a distance is Payne.
McGrath won't be involved I know but he should be for the simple reason that options in all provinces are limited. I'm not sure Marmion is going to make it and well overall after Murray our options aren't great.

 

[corny]

Really? I'd suggest that us dominating territory and, for the most part, posession for the first 60 minutes would suggest we had the stronger pack for that period of the game. The team tired badly as was expected and France took full advantage, well done to them as it won them the game but Ireland should have had a 10+ point lead by then. I'd live to know the amount of times we dropped the ball trying to string a simple backline move together in France's 22 because I imagine it's pretty damning. Henshaw and Payne have never unlocked a competant defence and just don't have the ability. No one is looking for a magic elixir to beat England but the team that played yesterday won't beat England so maybe we should try a few new faces and see if it brings anything. Next years 6nations side is going to look very different to this years and it's time to get working on it in the three nothing games we have remaining.

Not really. We made 80 odd more tackles than they did. The stats are such because they were clueless in what they were trying to do. Poor kicks, the conditions and a stupid gameplan ensured they couldn't establish field position and kept coughing up mistakes. However, for me, the constant throughout the game was we were losing the collisions. Sometimes badly. That continued and by the time Machenaud came on we were a non factor on the attacking front such was the toll. Put it this way if the half backs were changed they'd have won easily.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Really? I'd suggest that us dominating territory and, for the most part, posession for the first 60 minutes would suggest we had the stronger pack for that period of the game. The team tired badly as was expected and France took full advantage, well done to them as it won them the game but Ireland should have had a 10+ point lead by then. I'd live to know the amount of times we dropped the ball trying to string a simple backline move together in France's 22 because I imagine it's pretty damning. Henshaw and Payne have never unlocked a competant defence and just don't have the ability. No one is looking for a magic elixir to beat England but the team that played yesterday won't beat England so maybe we should try a few new faces and see if it brings anything. Next years 6nations side is going to look very different to this years and it's time to get working on it in the three nothing games we have remaining.

Based on today's first half performance as well, if neither side make changes to the starting XV then two weeks from now could be a bit of a cripple fight!

 

[munstermuffin]

Not really. We made 80 odd more tackles than they did. The stats are such because they were clueless in what they were trying to do. Poor kicks, the conditions and a stupid gameplan ensured they couldn't establish field position and kept coughing up mistakes. However, for me, the constant throughout the game was we were losing the collisions. Sometimes badly. That continued and by the time Machenaud came on we were a non factor on the attacking front such was the toll. Put it this way if the half backs were changed they'd have won easily.

Wouldn't agree with much you say corny but it interesting point you say. I didn't realise France had more ball and we had to tackle much more than them. Looking at stats it was 50/50 for first half.
But what does that say overall. I think it strongly shows we need changes.
Peat said earlier about there's still ranking etc to play for but way I see it if we don't make changes England will beat us easily and Scotland may do it too. So I think we have to gamble a bit

 

[FrenchFan]

So if, as has been said, they can win three games, then Guy Novès should be happy.

yes 1 more win and job done. It will have to do. That's all Noves will get in terms of results and time with players.

Back to T14 business next weekend with prospect of better rugby on show. And no favour from clubs to be expected before Wales.

I can see Noves experimenting some more and having fun.

 

[Peat]

Wouldn't agree with much you say corny but it interesting point you say. I didn't realise France had more ball and we had to tackle much more than them. Looking at stats it was 50/50 for first half.
But what does that say overall. I think it strongly shows we need changes.
Peat said earlier about there's still ranking etc to play for but way I see it if we don't make changes England will beat us easily and Scotland may do it too. So I think we have to gamble a bit

Nuh nuh nuh. You lads are good as you are. That back line in particular, it's grand. No need to start planning for the future on the forwards' bench, except for maybe Dillane. And Madigan, yup, certainly second best fly-half in Ireland.


Translation: I am fully expecting England to beat this iteration of Ireland unless there's changes and as most of the changes would involve Ulstermen coming into the team, I am doubly invested in Schmidt not changing anything because Ulster need those players right now. I don't even want the Ulster backs with the squad back, because Payne in the centres is simply a more intelligent version of Brad Barritt, and Trimble looks like he's lost that little bit of pace and is now premium Ian Dowling rather than Geoghehan on steroids; they are part of the lack of attack which I think bodes so well for England, and not needed at Ulster atm. I really hope Rory Scholes stays, as the old men on the wings are coming to an end of being better than him and Gilroy.

I'd take Best back mind. And keep Henry. Mind, you genuinely don't want Henry back yet though.


That said, if Mike Ross returns, that would be huge, and I'd gamble on Healy as well if properly fit. The main problem is that tight five simply isn't 6N strong and Ross with Healy on the bench would be a big step forwards. That could be enough alone on the day. The other issue is that backline just lacks any menace. There needs to be some brave changes made.

 

[FrenchFan]

yes 1 more win and job done. It will have to do. That's all Noves will get in terms of results and time with players.

Back to T14 business next weekend with prospect of better rugby on show. And no favour from clubs to be expected before Wales.

I can see Noves experimenting some more and having fun.

And to illustrate my point. Toulon just made a statement about Guirado on the back of their loss v Bordeaux today. JC Orioli the 2nd Toulon hooker picked up an injury today and is doubtful against Oyonnax next Sunday.

'If we don't need their services we'll rest them' said Jacques Delmas about Guirado and Mermoz. 'But we also need wins. It'll be in the club's and player's best interest. If JC (Orioli) is fit to play, we'll see. If he isn't, then you know what to expect about Guirado....'

If Orioli is not fit then Guirado will play v Oyonnax. That's just 5 days before Wales...
http://www.lequipe.fr/Rugby/Actualites/Guilhem-guirado-toulon-present-contre-oyonnax-cinq-jours-avant-le-pays-de-galles/634654

 

[LukeFitzgerald]

That said, if Mike Ross returns, that would be huge, and I'd gamble on Healy as well if properly fit. The main problem is that tight five simply isn't 6N strong and Ross with Healy on the bench would be a big step forwards. That could be enough alone on the day.

I'd tend to disagree with you. Ross wasn't great since the Argentina game for Leinster (what little time he had) and I thought he would retire at the end of the year. Furlong is probably neck and neck with him atm. Letting Moore go was a huge mistake.
McGrath is far better than Healy atm and, if he continues on his upward trajectory, should make the Lions in 2017. McGrath has to start. He's played excellently in almost every game he's played for Ireland.
We're not too bad in the tight 5, injuries taken into account. McGrath and Best are playing great rugby and McCarthy had 2 very good games against Wales and England. White is meh and Toner has put in a decent shift but is not as good as he was in 2014 and fell off 2 bad tackles on Saturday.
England should beat us in the tight five but I don't think it will be a walkover. Cole seemed rattled for the first 50 odd minutes in the scrum against Italy and Mako isn't that great a scrummager. Lawes isn't playing as well as he can and Hartley is the 2nd best Hooker in England. George should be starting. Kruis, however, has been class so far.

 

[corny]

This might sound mighty harsh, especially for a Leinster man, but the day Madigan moves to Bordeaux and is forgotten about can't come soon enough.