[2015 Six Nations] England

[goodNumber10]

not sure about that.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I am.

Considering the amount of space a 31 year old Andy Powell took up on the BBC RL pages when he joined Wigan.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Slightly OT... just realised that Fraser Balmain is a Geordie

They produce quite a few decent props up in them parts - Davey Wilson, Kieran Brookes (though he's from Lytham St Annes, but went through their academy) and Scott(?) Wilson.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Yeah that was my point - probably has a bit to do with the weather TBH.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Yeah that was my point - probably has a bit to do with the weather TBH.

Nothing makes you want to have a guys head next to your butt and shove your shoulders into another mans shoulders than a bit of rain.

 

[j'nuh]

Oh boy, I've just realised that we've managed 9 pages of this thread without discussing whether England need a traditional openside! Time to open that old can of worms!

Is it that we're all happy without for England to go without, or are we just resigned that it won't happen?

I would have thought more people would have been shouting for Kvesic tbh! He's been absolutely outstanding this season, IMO playing better than ever. Even when Glos lose the breakdown generally, Kvesic is nearly always the stand out player there on the field, e.g. I thought he looked much more impressive there than Flouw, shots fired.

 

[Maverick1987]

Oh boy, I've just realised that we've managed 9 pages of this thread without discussing whether England need a traditional openside! Time to open that old can of worms!

Is it that we're all happy without for England to go without, or are we just resigned that it won't happen?

I would have thought more people would have been shouting for Kvesic tbh! He's been absolutely outstanding this season, IMO playing better than ever. Even when Glos lose the breakdown generally, Kvesic is nearly always the stand out player there on the field, e.g. I thought he looked much more impressive there than Flouw, shots fired.

Agree agree agree . Answer to the first question we are just resigned to it not happening ^^

 

[McTallshort]

Need to address the ball carrying issue in the pack and the centres before we start on again with the red herring that is the traditional openside playing for England. I cannot rememeber 1 occasion in the last 3 years when we have been at a disadvantage because Robshaw is playing at 7 he has more man of the match awards for England than most yet people still seem obsessed with replacing him with an inconsistant player who is frankly the best of a bad bunch in a very inconsistant team.

There is a rumour though that a certain S Armitage is set to sign for Saints....

 

[TRF_Olyy]

inb4 people start jizzing over Kvesic as a ball carrier

yet people still seem obsessed with replacing him with an inconsistant player who is frankly the best of a bad bunch in a very inconsistant team

I hope Santa brought you some kevlar underpants because there are some on here who are going to want to castrate you for that :lol:

 

[McTallshort]

inb4 people start jizzing over Kvesic as a ball carrier


I hope Santa brought you some kevlar underpants because there are some on here who are going to want to castrate you for that :lol:

Yeah I know but is he really that good? or is it just because he is about the only English player who people class as a genuine openside?

 

[j'nuh]

Need to address the ball carrying issue in the pack and the centres before we start on again with the red herring that is the traditional openside playing for England. I cannot rememeber 1 occasion in the last 3 years when we have been at a disadvantage because Robshaw is playing at 7

Wales 30-3 England

tbh, coached right, I think we're more than set for ball carriers in the pack. With Morgan/Vunipola, we have someone who is completely specialised towards carrying. (Some nations play 8s who don't base their games mostly around carrying, eg Wales and Ireland.) Then there's Attwood and Wilson, both better than your average lock/prop in the carry. Add Kvesic, and Ewers on the bench, and we're not bad at all IMO.

On the other hand, contesting the breakdown has been a problem right from the beginning of Lancaster's rule that just hasn't gone away. I suspect England is the worst team at contesting the breakdown of the top 8 or so. Having Launchbury and Cole is an improvement, but they are more opportunist fetchers rather than someone who will go out of their way to win you ball.

he has more man of the match awards for England than most yet people still seem obsessed with replacing him with an inconsistant player who is frankly the best of a bad bunch in a very inconsistant team.

Kvesic isn't inconsistent at all though. He's been impressive all season. And he's not the best of a bad bunch either. Gloucester have improved a lot this season. (The table doesn't reflect it though because the general ability of the league has gone up several notches too!)

The coaching changes at Glos have really worked in Kvesic's favour. Laurie is pretty well-known for how well he coaches the breakdown, so it's not surprising at all.

During a player interview in a game (Savage I think?), they were saying that for tackling technique, players at Gloucester are instructed that when Kvesic is around, it's useful for him that they tackle extremely low, so that they fall clear of the breakdown giving Kvesic the space to contest. It's this team-based change in approach to the breakdown that's giving Kvesic a chance to show his ability, and he's reacting so well.

btw, I wasn't saying get rid of Robshaw. I was more thinking 6. Robshaw 7. Kvesic

 

[McTallshort]

Wales 30-3 England

tbh, coached right, I think we're more than set for ball carriers in the pack. With Morgan/Vunipola, we have someone who is completely specialised towards carrying. (Some nations play 8s who don't base their games mostly around carrying, eg Wales and Ireland.) Then there's Attwood and Wilson, both better than your average lock/prop in the carry. Add Kvesic, and Ewers on the bench, and we're not bad at all IMO.

On the other hand, contesting the breakdown has been a problem right from the beginning of Lancaster's rule that just hasn't gone away. I suspect England is the worst team at contesting the breakdown of the top 8 or so. Having Launchbury and Cole is an improvement, but they are more opportunist fetchers rather than someone who will go out of their way to win you ball.


Kvesic isn't inconsistent at all though. He's been impressive all season. And he's not the best of a bad bunch either. Gloucester have improved a lot this season. (The table doesn't reflect it though because the general ability of the league has gone up several notches too!)

The coaching changes at Glos have really worked in Kvesic's favour. Laurie is pretty well-known for how well he coaches the breakdown, so it's not surprising at all.

During a player interview in a game (Savage I think?), they were saying that for tackling technique, players at Gloucester are instructed that when Kvesic is around, it's useful for him that they tackle extremely low, so that they fall clear of the breakdown giving Kvesic the space to contest. It's this team-based change in approach to the breakdown that's giving Kvesic a chance to show his ability, and he's reacting so well.

btw, I wasn't saying get rid of Robshaw. I was more thinking 6. Robshaw 7. Kvesic

And you base that on what?

 

[j'nuh]

And you base that on what?

Even when we beat teams, we seem to still lose to them at the breakdown area.

As I said above, the difference between having a traditional openside and a Launchbury/Cole, is that Launchbury/Cole fetches as and when the opportunity occurs. It isn't their primary roles. They don't put themselves in positions to go looking for the turnover or to disrupt the breakdown. A traditional 7 is different. They think a couple of steps ahead on how they can put themselves in the best position to achieve a steal. It really shows that we don't play an openside like this. It isn't even a coaching problem; it's a problem that picking one player in the pack would solve.

 

[Peat]

I can only conclude that J'nuh has had a traumatically boring Christmas. I am sorry to hear this.

I must also point out, completely pedantically, that the only thing England need to do is make the best of her resources - it is the only thing that can be done. The presence of a fetcher at 7 will never be a need, because sometimes we won't have one, particularly with our ridiculous national style of play, but we must still find ourselves able to win games.

And we can and we have done so with some huge breakdown performances. Our best performances against New Zealand and South Africa have both been accompanied with hugely brutal and intense counter-rucking efforts that have reduced opposition clean ball to a scant amount. A fetcher is not the only way to do things. At our collective best there are so many people capable of interrupting a ruck for that crucial second than an openside almost superfluous - or so, at least, I think Lancaster believes.

Because look at the way we set up, look at the way we defend. J'nuh correctly (imo) notes that we rarely seen Cole or Launchbury actually lurking for turnovers but he is incorrect (imo) when he says that's personnel, not coaching. The coaching team want a set defensive line at all times, they don't want people waiting that half-step back before the tackle has been even made. Look at how often we've been exposed for not having a sweeper for the chip over, it's another weakness of that system. Or look at Robshaw. I personally rate Robshaw's technical presence when he's at the breakdown. He will reach a good position and is difficult to move. He's not the best around, but at the very least he will slow that ball down. His problem is that frequently he can't get to that breakdown the crucial half-second before the clear-out that a fetcher needs. Why? Look at where he's stood in the defensive line. So, to be effective, either the tackle itself needs to take so long he has time to reposition himself, or the clear-out needs to arrive so ponderously that he has lots of time (paging South Africa...)

And I am convinced that if you put Kvesic or Fraser or Steflon or even David Pocock's English clone into that defensive line you will see similar results. Yes, a man who is quicker to get over the ball and stronger once there would cause more damage but ultimately the situation would frustrate them a lot. If you can't get there before they do, game over, unless you're supremely cunning and let them fly over before even engaging and then nick the ball.

So I think Robshaw is basically about as good an openside in defence as Lancaster's system will allow. Upgrading him is kinda pointless. What you need is more players who will offer that same ability to take opportunity of the half-chances that come their way. England are really missing Youngs/Webber, Cole, Launchbury and an effective Wood at the moment. I also think Lawes was briefly making a bigger impression on rucks as well. Now, you could lose Wood for someone like Kvesic and move Robshaw to 6 to get that. I would listen to that one with interest. But I feel like you'd need a really big and hard carrying tight five for that to really work. And we... sorta have that? If we have all the right players out that day playing to their best. But the lineout might be a little ropey.

Now, where I really think we need a fetcher is in securing our own damn ball. We're so frequently bad at getting quick ball and in particular, I think we're short of players who will stick with a break and ensure we get good ball from there. Where Robshaw looks silly as an openside is when you see a break secured by someone blonde and then realise it's Launchbury. Someone like Kvesic would be pretty cool there - but then, so would Tom Croft. And, for the more mundane everyday problems of slow ball, what you really want is someone ridiculously strong with good explosive power, either getting beyond the gainline or smashing away counter-ruckers, an English Kaino or Ferris... like, say, Ewers...

... or Sam Burgess. Or Itoje, maybe?

I would like to see Kvesic get more gametime. I would like that option to be in our armoury. I think the in the right circs it could be a fantastic one, taking us back to Hill and Back... but then you need a Woodman, Thompson and Vickery. I would love such a thing, but Corbs, Webber and Wilson ain't quite the same, if not half-bad for the modern age. I'm not sure this one is a goer. And I'm not sure Robshaw would need replacing if you allowed opensides to play like opensides, and I'm not sure he's worth replacing if you won't, although Kvesic does offer enough to be worth looking at as a flanker.

 

[goodNumber10]

Need to address the ball carrying issue in the pack and the centres before we start on again with the red herring that is the traditional openside playing for England. I cannot rememeber 1 occasion in the last 3 years when we have been at a disadvantage because Robshaw is playing at 7 he has more man of the match awards for England than most yet people still seem obsessed with replacing him with an inconsistant player who is frankly the best of a bad bunch in a very inconsistant team.

There is a rumour though that a certain S Armitage is set to sign for Saints....

Agree about the ball carriers.... I wrote as much here.

http://www.thedeadballarea.com/england-2014-englands-ball-carriers/

*sorry for the spam*

 

[mcc100763]

Its Interesting how there are always variations in our choices, I wonder if Graham Rowntree or Andy Farrell think "WTF?" when Stuart Lancaster makes a selection choice...

My 15 would be..

1 Vunipola
2 Webber
3 Wilson

4 Lawes
5 Attwood

6 Vunipola
7 Kvesic
8 Morgan

9 Youngs (C)
10 Ford

11 May

12 Farrell (I know, I know)
13 Burrell
14 Watson

15 Brown

I would like to see them go all out for attack and not get bogged down in the 'too bloody scared to show flair' mindset of the Autumn....

Feel free to rip my superb selection to s**t.....

 

[Maverick1987]

Its Interesting how there are always variations in our choices, I wonder if Graham Rowntree or Andy Farrell think "WTF?" when Stuart Lancaster makes a selection choice...

My 15 would be..

1 Vunipola
2 Webber
3 Wilson

4 Lawes
5 Attwood

6 Vunipola
7 Kvesic
8 Morgan

9 Youngs (C)
10 Ford

11 May

12 Farrell (I know, I know)
13 Burrell
14 Watson

15 Brown

I would like to see them go all out for attack and not get bogged down in the 'too bloody scared to show flair' mindset of the Autumn....

Feel free to rip my superb selection to s**t.....

All out attack with Farrell at 12 ? Please tell me this is a typo ?

 

[Patchey]

Just a thought re the 15/23 shirt. Mike Brown isn't having the best of seasons, he is getting better but has yet to reach the heights of 2013/14. What do we think of our other options? Watson appears to be the go to 14/15 cover right now, but I think he is going to take a while to get used to test rugby. Foden is still more male model that rugby player and Goode is, well, Goode. Chris Pennell was interviewed by the Telegraph the other day and there were a few hints that he is still in contention for an EPS place. If Brown can't find form/gets hurt what would we think about him?

Its Interesting how there are always variations in our choices, I wonder if Graham Rowntree or Andy Farrell think "WTF?" when Stuart Lancaster makes a selection choice...

My 15 would be..

1 Vunipola
2 Webber
3 Wilson

4 Lawes
5 Attwood

6 Vunipola
7 Kvesic
8 Morgan

9 Youngs (C)
10 Ford

11 May

12 Farrell (I know, I know)
13 Burrell
14 Watson

15 Brown

I would like to see them go all out for attack and not get bogged down in the 'too bloody scared to show flair' mindset of the Autumn....

Feel free to rip my superb selection to s**t.....

Interesting.

As mentiong, 'attack' and 'Farrell at 12' don't really go together. i like the idea pf trying that back row, if Billy can learn to use his noggin when carrying. Mako starting is a bit wacky thought mate.

 

[Wendigo7]

Ok, I'll play this game:

1. Marler
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Attwood
6. Robshaw (Captain Fantastic)
7. Kvesic
8. Morgan
9. Cook
10. Ford (Pk)
11. May
12. Eastmond
13. Tuilagi
14. Watson
15. Brown

Subs:
16. Corbisiero
17. Youngs
18. Wilson
19. Launchbury
20. Haskell
21. Care
22. Cipriani
23. Joseph

BOOM HEADSHOT!!!

 

[chippieolamus]

1. Corbisiero
2. Webber
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Attwood
6. Robshaw
7. Kvesic
8. Morgan
9. Care
10. Ford
11. May
12. Eastmond/Slade
13. Tuilagi
14. Watson
15. Brown

Subs:
16. Hartley
17. Marler
18. Wilson
19. Kruis
20. Vunipola
21. Cook/Youngs
22. Farrell
23. Rokoduguni