[2015 Six Nations] England

[goodNumber10]

Think it's purely about not disrupting the squads that play this weekend.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Well we aren't bad off for front 5. All of these I wouldn't be scared of playing against the Welsh apart from our 5 choice tighthead.
1-Corbs, Marler, Vunipola, Mullan
2-Hartley, Youngs, Webber, LCD, George ?
3-Wilson, Cole, Brookes, Thomas, Wilson
4-Attwood, Kruis, Garvey
5-Kitchener, Day, Itoje

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

Well we aren't bad off for front 5. All of these I wouldn't be scared of playing against the Welsh apart from our 5 choice tighthead.
1-Corbs, Marler, Vunipola, Mullan
2-Hartley, Youngs, Webber, LCD, George ?
3-Wilson, Cole, Brookes, Thomas, Wilson
4-Attwood, Kruis, Garvey
5-Kitchener, Day, Itoje

Come on mate, they might be promising players, but are you honestly going to say that if we put out the players below, you wouldn't be worried about them going against the welsh front 5?

1. Mullan
2. LCD
3. Thomas
4. Garvey
5. Itoje

Even with the best available players in each position, I think we will struggle in the set piece against the Welsh (line-out more than scrum), especially given the relative lack of fitness and form displayed by our world class front-rowers at the moment.

 

[Maverick1987]

Come on mate, they might be promising players, but are you honestly going to say that if we put out the players below, you wouldn't be worried about them going against the welsh front 5?

1. Mullan
2. LCD
3. Thomas
4. Garvey
5. Itoje

Even with the best available players in each position, I think we will struggle in the set piece against the Welsh (line-out more than scrum), especially given the relative lack of fitness and form displayed by our world class front-rowers at the moment.

If they were without Samson Lee then no tbh

Thomas' scrummaging has improved no end at bath , Mullan is of high quality LCD the same and that row partnership I think you are onto something !!! A beautiful blend of athleticism, power, youth and experience .

You should be the head coach you have just made me feel better about our injuries

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I thought the general consensus was that Wales line out was a bit wobbly?

 

[TheSaffycen]

Come on mate, they might be promising players, but are you honestly going to say that if we put out the players below, you wouldn't be worried about them going against the welsh front 5?

1. Mullan
2. LCD
3. Thomas
4. Garvey
5. Itoje

Even with the best available players in each position, I think we will struggle in the set piece against the Welsh (line-out more than scrum), especially given the relative lack of fitness and form displayed by our world class front-rowers at the moment.

That might be our line up in 3 years time In fairness what does that front 5 lack apart from experience ? The only players in the Welsh front five to worry about are Wyn-Jones and Lee, but with Corbs and Attwood I think we match them personally.

 

[Willodell100]

That might be our line up in 3 years time In fairness what does that front 5 lack apart from experience ? The only players in the Welsh front five to worry about are Wyn-Jones and Lee, but with Corbs and Attwood I think we match them personally.

I think we agree on a few things but on this I certainly do. I really don't think there is anything to fear from that current Welsh front five. Alun Wyn-Jones is a class act but the rest of them I'm not so sure of and certainly not in the tight where I think we still (with all our injuries) dominate.

It's not so much the players I back this up but more the sheer excellence with which Graham Rowntree operates this group. I cannot rate him highly enough. He certainly brings the best out of our forwards in this area.

 

[Peat]

I thought the general consensus was that Wales line out was a bit wobbly?

And so might ours in this hypothetical example be with LCD throwing and neither of Garvey or Itoje renowned for running lineouts - can't say I've ever noticed Garvey being much of a lineout target, maybe he is now he shed that extra weight to play flanker, interested to hear the Bath boys on that.

I wouldn't be overly pleased by playing that unit against Wales. Maybe they'd get away with it but that's only due to Wales' poverty in that area. But then I seem to be judging English players far more harshly than a lot atm.

 

[Maverick1987]

And so might ours in this hypothetical example be with LCD throwing and neither of Garvey or Itoje renowned for running lineouts - can't say I've ever noticed Garvey being much of a lineout target, maybe he is now he shed that extra weight to play flanker, interested to hear the Bath boys on that.

I wouldn't be overly pleased by playing that unit against Wales. Maybe they'd get away with it but that's only due to Wales' poverty in that area. But then I seem to be judging English players far more harshly than a lot atm.

Well to be fair this is presuming 20-25 tight 5 forwards being injured and having to call young lads in to play . If that many players were injured you would probably be more likely to see Day play we also have Paterson rather than Itoje to run the line out

There's plenty of more experienced hookers than LCD as well . Lancaster is trying to include the youngsters for the experience more than anything

Imagine taking that amount of tight 5 forwards out of any other country's team it would look far worse

 

[Peat]

Well to be fair this is presuming 20-25 tight 5 forwards being injured and having to call young lads in to play . If that many players were injured you would probably be more likely to see Day play we also have Paterson rather than Itoje to run the line out

There's plenty of more experienced hookers than LCD as well . Lancaster is trying to include the youngsters for the experience more than anything

Imagine taking that amount of tight 5 forwards out of any other country's team it would look far worse

No, that's fair, but people were talking about being happy to play those players if needed.

We have very good depth, its inarguable, but I think some people are being too quick to value some players as the full shilling when they don't have the all round skillsets to play a big positive part in an international match. Our depth is good, but not, imo, as good as some are saying.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Even with the best available players in each position, I think we will struggle in the set piece against the Welsh (line-out more than scrum), especially given the relative lack of fitness and form displayed by our world class front-rowers at the moment.

England last year had the best lineout of anyone in the world and Wales had one of the worst. Why on Earth do you think that would be an area we would struggle in?

 

[j'nuh]

No, that's fair, but people were talking about being happy to play those players if needed.

We have very good depth, its inarguable, but I think some people are being too quick to value some players as the full shilling when they don't have the all round skillsets to play a big positive part in an international match. Our depth is good, but not, imo, as good as some are saying.

I think that there are two emotions going on when we are talking about depth. One feeling is that we have at least three players in most positions that wouldn't look totally out of place on the international stage. The only positions where I don't think this is true is at tighthead and in the half-backs. (Centres are odd because we do have a number of international-quality players, but we are struggling mostly to find the right system to play them in.) The other feeling is that we are not so full of talent that we won't notice when our best go missing. Launchbury and Morgan being out of the Six Nations are massive losses that will be felt, just as Corbisiero's and Tuilagi's injuries over the last couple of years have been felt.

England last year had the best lineout of anyone in the world and Wales had one of the worst. Why on Earth do you think that would be an area we would struggle in?

Agree mostly. I think that Lawes, Parling and Wood out mean that our lineout unit is weaker in the air, but Kruis, Attwood and Haskell mean that we are stronger on the ground. Also, Kruis and Attwood aren't bad at all and should still take most of their own ball anyway, as they did in the Autumn. And whilst Hibbard starts for Wales, the lineout will be a potential banana skin for them on their own throw. It is the weak point to his game.

On that topic, Billy or Ben in the maul/scrum? Billy has a few stone on Ben, but what is a couple of extra stone in the context of the combined weight of the pack? If each player needs to break off of the set piece, then Billy has that extra weight in the carry, useful if you need to push your way over the line. On the other hand, Ben has better feet to go with his strength. In the scrum, Ben has absolutely outstanding ball control at the base... does this make up for the few stone he concedes on Billy? I'm torn. If you have the upper edge at the set piece, Billy could probably tip the balance in the pushing contest. But otherwise, I'd go with the guile of Ben. Not sure though?

 

[Peat]

I think that there are two emotions going on when we are talking about depth. One feeling is that we have at least three players in most positions that wouldn't look totally out of place on the international stage. The only positions where I don't think this is true is at tighthead and in the half-backs. (Centres are odd because we do have a number of international-quality players, but we are struggling mostly to find the right system to play them in.) The other feeling is that we are not so full of talent that we won't notice when our best go missing. Launchbury and Morgan being out of the Six Nations are massive losses that will be felt, just as Corbisiero's and Tuilagi's injuries over the last couple of years have been felt.

I think that can be best summed up as we have a large number of competent internationals and very few outstanding internationals.

Disagree about the centres btw - not enough consistency

 

[Maverick1987]

I think that there are two emotions going on when we are talking about depth. One feeling is that we have at least three players in most positions that wouldn't look totally out of place on the international stage. The only positions where I don't think this is true is at tighthead and in the half-backs. (Centres are odd because we do have a number of international-quality players, but we are struggling mostly to find the right system to play them in.) The other feeling is that we are not so full of talent that we won't notice when our best go missing. Launchbury and Morgan being out of the Six Nations are massive losses that will be felt, just as Corbisiero's and Tuilagi's injuries over the last couple of years have been felt.


Agree mostly. I think that Lawes, Parling and Wood out mean that our lineout unit is weaker in the air, but Kruis, Attwood and Haskell mean that we are stronger on the ground. Also, Kruis and Attwood aren't bad at all and should still take most of their own ball anyway, as they did in the Autumn. And whilst Hibbard starts for Wales, the lineout will be a potential banana skin for them on their own throw. It is the weak point to his game.

On that topic, Billy or Ben in the maul/scrum? Billy has a few stone on Ben, but what is a couple of extra stone in the context of the combined weight of the pack? If each player needs to break off of the set piece, then Billy has that extra weight in the carry, useful if you need to push your way over the line. On the other hand, Ben has better feet to go with his strength. In the scrum, Ben has absolutely outstanding ball control at the base... does this make up for the few stone he concedes on Billy? I'm torn. If you have the upper edge at the set piece, Billy could probably tip the balance in the pushing contest. But otherwise, I'd go with the guile of Ben. Not sure though?

We are fine at TH if everyone was fit . We have Cole, Wilson and Brookes who has looked impressive to me tbh

 

[Peat]

On that topic, Billy or Ben in the maul/scrum? Billy has a few stone on Ben, but what is a couple of extra stone in the context of the combined weight of the pack? If each player needs to break off of the set piece, then Billy has that extra weight in the carry, useful if you need to push your way over the line. On the other hand, Ben has better feet to go with his strength. In the scrum, Ben has absolutely outstanding ball control at the base... does this make up for the few stone he concedes on Billy? I'm torn. If you have the upper edge at the set piece, Billy could probably tip the balance in the pushing contest. But otherwise, I'd go with the guile of Ben. Not sure though?

I'm of the opinion that an 8's impact on a scrum, pushing wise, is likely to be fairly minimal unless he's a complete freak. I guess Billy is pretty freakish... but not scrum-changing freakish, so I'd disregard it.

Basically Ben's a better rugby player at this time, lets not complicate the matter.

 

[Maverick1987]

I'm of the opinion that an 8's impact on a scrum, pushing wise, is likely to be fairly minimal unless he's a complete freak. I guess Billy is pretty freakish... but not scrum-changing freakish, so I'd disregard it.

Basically Ben's a better rugby player at this time, lets not complicate the matter.

They offer different things imo . Main part is Billy hasn't been doing what he's great at until last week against Munster .

 

[j'nuh]

We are fine at TH if everyone was fit . We have Cole, Wilson and Brookes who has looked impressive to me tbh

Brookes? Still not sure why everyone is rating him so highly. So far he has six caps. Three of these were <10 minutes and he made no impact at all in any of these games. He has ~20 minutes a game against NZ, Samoa and Australia. His stats pretty much confirm he did very little in the loose, the occasional carry and more missed than made tackles. Worryingly he gave away 2 penalties in 20 minutes against Samoa, can't remember the context of those penalties though. I mean, maybe he scrummaged alright? I can't quite remember; if he did, it's not as if he's had the most difficult opponents (Samoa and Australia in particular). I just don't remember him standing out enough for me to think I'd be comfortable with him starting for England.

 

[Maverick1987]

I'm happier to decide without looking at stats as you say it's about context

When I've seen him for England he's looked good especially in the scrum.

Let's be honest only Ford and possibly May came out of the Samoa game with a higher stock than they went in with

 

[Maverick1987]

Daily Mail reporting today that JJ will start at outside centre against Wales on Friday . Doesn't mention his centre partner but I'm expecting Burrell to play IC . Tbh I'd be really chuffed if it's true

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah, I'd be happy with Burrell and Joseph too - best we've got available atm.