[2015 Six Nations] England

[Every Time Ref]

Even though I don't agree with it, I can understand why they'd pick him in the Saxons. But the main squad? He is simply currently not good enough, and I'd question the coaches objectivity if they were to select him ahead of someone like Slade. Slade is better, more experienced, has plenty of potential and is in hot form this year. I just can't fathom why they would pick Burgess ahead of him.

As far as I'm concerned, the horse bolted months ago when it came to Burgess and the next WC. He could be a useful player after the WC. (Although I'm suspicious he may end up code-hopping like SBW.) But whilst the focus is on the WC, he shouldn't be in the full squad, even on development grounds.

Agree on Burgess, it is ridiculous to be discussing him now. He had a man of the match award (handed out by the BT sport commentary team, who have been creaming their pants over him since day one and were basically just waiting for a reasonably good performance to start screaming about how he's ready), and is now a Saxon, suddenly people are suggesting his 6th rugby union start should be the 6 Nations curtain raiser?! Desperate times, yes, but their are better desperate measures available than him. Even in his own club there are two better inside centres, Mike Ford has not been picking him ahead of Devoto on merit - as shown by Devoto's presence in the real crunch matches against Toulouse. Don#t get me wrong, the idea of Devoto starting for England in Cardiff is terrifying, but he and several other premiership players are a better bet than Burgess.

In the worst case scenario, where everyone who might be out is out, we have to stick within the current squad - I would say, in that case, Twelvetrees / Joseph would be my choice and I think Lancaster's too. Slade on the bench. All things considered, I don't think that's too bad a combo - shame to have to pick Twelvetrees on the form he's in, but if it takes 5 injuries to get the Premiership's best outside centre into an England shirt then maybe that's a silver lining.

 

[goodNumber10]

I don't think anyone has suggest Burgess should start have they?

 

[Maverick1987]

I think my choice for the centre pairing would be Burrell/JJ . Burrell might not in great form in last last game or so but 36 has been awful for 6 months now

 

[j'nuh]

I don't think anyone has suggest Burgess should start have they?

No, but at this point, with a looming WC, there is no need for anyone to be in the squad on development grounds.

Come to think of it, do we even need to replace any injuries in the centres or at fly-half? Five centres and four fly-halves was overkill in the first place. They should have scrapped a centre and a fly-half and bring in Webber and Brookes, two players that would be imminently involved if there was just one injury in the squad.

 

[goodNumber10]

No, but at this point, with a looming WC, there is no need for anyone to be in the squad on development grounds.

Come to think of it, do we even need to replace any injuries in the centres or at fly-half? Five centres and four fly-halves was overkill in the first place. They should have scrapped a centre and a fly-half and bring in Webber and Brookes, two players that would be imminently involved if there was just one injury in the squad.

Well that's why he's in the Saxons.

I agree though, i don't think we need to particularly bring anyone in at this point - unless Burrell or someone doesn't make the cut at the weekend.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Apparently Burrell is fit for Wales, Parling and Barritt should be back for 2nd round (Italy?).

 

[Peat]

No, but at this point, with a looming WC, there is no need for anyone to be in the squad on development grounds.

Come to think of it, do we even need to replace any injuries in the centres or at fly-half? Five centres and four fly-halves was overkill in the first place. They should have scrapped a centre and a fly-half and bring in Webber and Brookes, two players that would be imminently involved if there was just one injury in the squad.

From their perspective...

They don't need to look any further at Webber and Brookes, and there's not much they can do with them in that window. Their opinion of them is set (solid 3rd choices), they will probably receive better coaching for their technical needs simply by staying at their club, and they've proven an ability to fit in quickly before if called up due to injury. So there's no point having them in the squad.

They do need to look further at their options at 10 and 12. They just don't know really know who they're going to pick there. As key TDMs, they will benefit from being able to observe England's planned gameplan and moves, but the main thing is the coaches give themselves every chance to work out who can do what ahead of picking a WC squad.

In which case, why stop now? Why not call up a guy who they see as maybe making the World Cup squad?

Tbh, to me, the looming WC justifies development grounds more than ever. It's a last chance saloon for integrating players. Not sure Burgess is the one I'd pick, but I feel increasingly sure he'll be the one Lancaster picks...

 

[j'nuh]

Agh, this might be an agree to disagree matter. For me, Brookes and Webber need to be involved in England. They'll still be released to their clubs for the entire tournament, so that's fine, they'll continue playing and being coached through the period. No loss to their ability.

Also, I'm fairly convinced he does have it narrowed down at fly-half, with Ford and Farrell as his primary options, and in the centres, where Tuilagi is fairly confident of at least one of the places.

My problem is that you force your hand when you cement two in place. If Webber goes through a golden period, Lancaster will feel his hand is forced by not picking Webber earlier in the year. The justification will be that Webber wasn't training with the squad and won't know the processes as well as Hartley and Youngs. Or if even one of Hartley or Youngs gets injured, Webber is in. I just find it a lot more conceivable that Webber/Brookes will be involved in the WC than the sixth choice centre or the fourth choice fly-half.

 

[msf]

Hey, I'm new here so please feel free to **** all over this...

The backline I would pick, from the players available (injuries+EPS)

15. Brown
14. Watson
13. Joseph
12. Burrell
11. May
10. Ford
9. Wigglesworth

This team can play at least two ways, i.e. the kicking game and the short passing/power game. The most important player here is actually Wigglesworth, because hes the only 9 we have who can box kick and get the ball away from the breakdown quickly.

 

[Willodell100]

Hi there and welcome.

I'm very new myself but its not bad at all and has a nice balance to it. I personally don't like Wigglesworth but that's my hang up from the last time he played for England. He has done consistently well for Saracens for a while now and he certainly has a very good box kick that would with our exit.

I think SL will pick Twelvetrees for his all round game at 12. I would still like to see the running and distribution ability of Eastmond (if fit) in there to link up with his club mates inside and outside.

Anyone have any more updates on our injured?

 

[msf]

And here's my back line for the 2019 world cup (one I think we actually have a chance of winning). I've thought about this a bit recently, and at the moment we are lacking a world class 12, and also a wing like Savea or North to take us over the advantage line. So I've gone for Atkinson, who already seems to be a better bet than Twelvetrees after only half a season in the Premiership, and Burgess, not Sam but Joe, the young Wigan winger who has just signed for the Rabbitohs. He's 6'4 and really quick, and if he bulks up a bit (hes only 20) he will be a real threat in either code. Daly is there for the left-footed option and because we need a long-range kicker alongside George Ford, and Wade just edges it over Watson on the right wing because he beats more defenders (from what I've seen) and definitely scores more tries than Watson. Finally I would play Chris Cook at scrum half because he is the perfect foil for Ford, and because he is already better at the basics of scrum-half play than Youngs or Care.

15. Daly
14. Wade
13. Tuilagi
12. Atkinson
11. Burgess
10. Ford
9. Cook

- - - Updated - - -

I realise that it's a bit early to be counting players in or out for 2019, but the one thing that really bothers me about Lancaster is that he claims to have a long-term plan, but the plan doesn't seem to recognise that the players we have at the moment are simply not good enough to win a world cup. Whereas Woodward realised this in 1999 and brought Cohen, Tindall into the team after the World Cup, and brought Robinson over from league with a long-term plan to play him at the next world cup.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Hey, I'm new here so please feel free to **** all over this...

The backline I would pick, from the players available (injuries+EPS)

15. Brown
14. Watson
13. Joseph
12. Burrell
11. May
10. Ford
9. Wigglesworth

This team can play at least two ways, i.e. the kicking game and the short passing/power game. The most important player here is actually Wigglesworth, because hes the only 9 we have who can box kick and get the ball away from the breakdown quickly.

Welcome, we don't **** all over people to start with. If you want to go that way feel free to regularly state that Owen Farrell is god's own rugby player and should be cloned so the entire team is made up of him

 

[TheSaffycen]

Hey, I'm new here so please feel free to **** all over this...

The backline I would pick, from the players available (injuries+EPS)

15. Brown
14. Watson
13. Joseph
12. Burrell
11. May
10. Ford
9. Wigglesworth

This team can play at least two ways, i.e. the kicking game and the short passing/power game. The most important player here is actually Wigglesworth, because hes the only 9 we have who can box kick and get the ball away from the breakdown quickly.

Agree with you about WW, he also brings in a left foot which is great for clearing.


Chris Cook probably should have had a look in as he gives Bath a lot of pace into the game and is a physical defender. If Burrell can sort out his defending than he and Joseph could be incredible, I just have the feeling that it wont work for some reason.

 

[Peat]

Agh, this might be an agree to disagree matter. For me, Brookes and Webber need to be involved in England. They'll still be released to their clubs for the entire tournament, so that's fine, they'll continue playing and being coached through the period. No loss to their ability.

Also, I'm fairly convinced he does have it narrowed down at fly-half, with Ford and Farrell as his primary options, and in the centres, where Tuilagi is fairly confident of at least one of the places.

My problem is that you force your hand when you cement two in place. If Webber goes through a golden period, Lancaster will feel his hand is forced by not picking Webber earlier in the year. The justification will be that Webber wasn't training with the squad and won't know the processes as well as Hartley and Youngs. Or if even one of Hartley or Youngs gets injured, Webber is in. I just find it a lot more conceivable that Webber/Brookes will be involved in the WC than the sixth choice centre or the fourth choice fly-half.

I was putting out their view, not mine - if you're Lancaster and think you wanted to look at lots of inside-centres now, why change your mind just because a bunch of them got injured? I think it's been pretty clear from day one they wanted to get Burgess into the World Cup squad as well. You might think they're making a mistake, but it is consistent.

From my view - Personally I think we do have a problem with the 3rd fly-half slot and an absolute 250% aborterrific horrorshow of a problem at 12. They can look at all the 12s they want if you ask me, it is the single biggest problem in the squad.

That said, I've been griping about their tendency to pick less than 3 front rows for a while, and I'll continue doing so now - they clearly believe they don't have to, but it always makes me feel nervous - and neither Webber nor Brookes are that internationally experienced. Webber arguably should be in the 23. I can definitely see your argument. Just I can see theirs as well and don't think it's the mistake you think it is.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Can I add my voice to those rating Wigglesworth. A nice, no-nonsense scrum-half who gives a decent straight-from-the-base pass, won't take two steps and give the ball directly to an opposition centre, and has a good kicking game. Certainly an option I would like to have around, even if Youngs and Care are more "exciting" players.

The consensus seems to be that Youngs will start against Wales, and he probably will, but I have to say I've been impressed with Care's form for Harlequins since being dropped. I've always hated Youngs anyway so I'm freely admitting to bias, but Care has definitely gone away and worked on improving his game, upping his tempo and passing without that godawful two-step routine.

On Burgess - maybe I misunderstood the tone, but his name seemed to be coming up with reference to the discussion of which centres to pick for the 6N opener? Regardless, having him in the squad at all seems unproductive anyway to me. I didn't even really agree with the Saxons call up, although I guess I can see the logic. Why have him in the squad at all unless you're considering playing him either on the bench or as a starter? He's not good enough to play international rugby, so that shouldn't be something Lancaster's considering.

 

[msf]

Hey Saffycen, great minds think alike! Or did I subconsciously influence you? Perhaps this is what Andy Farrell is trying to do by continuously talking up Brad Barritt.

RE. Owen Farrell, I am ashamed to admit that I thought he might be our best bet at 10 for this world cup, but that was when the choice seemed to be between him and Toby Flood. I know realise that he is never going to learn to pass or run properly, at least without Wayne Smith's help (I think Nick Mallett was being nice there, to make up for calling Farrell 'wooden,' which I think sums up Farrell perfectly).

 

[TheSaffycen]

Hey Saffycen, great minds think alike! Or did I subconsciously influence you? Perhaps this is what Andy Farrell is trying to do by continuously talking up Brad Barritt.

RE. Owen Farrell, I am ashamed to admit that I thought he might be our best bet at 10 for this world cup, but that was when the choice seemed to be between him and Toby Flood. I know realise that he is never going to learn to pass or run properly, at least without Wayne Smith's help (I think Nick Mallett was being nice there, to make up for calling Farrell 'wooden,' which I think sums up Farrell perfectly).

Im biased to Sarries players But being honest on Farrell he has improved greatly since the lions tour. I think that if we gave him a few sessions with Schmidt or Alex King than he would improve again. If you watch the Munster and Clermont game you see he likes to attack the line, I think he doesn't have the speed to capitalise on these half breaks. His mind is actually pretty good though, give him time as he is only 23. Brad Barritt is limited but does his job very well, better than anyone else in the world. At the moment though we need to look towards the Bath team. But they have a player which we can't erplicate, Louw. he is possibly the best openside in the NH at the moment possibly the world. If we want the Bath template we need -
1.Corbisiero 2.Webber 3.Cole 4.Attwood 5.Kruis 6.Garvey/Ewers 7.Robshaw 8.Vunipola so we have lots of carrying options. Then in the backs you can have the little guys like Ford and Eastmond.

 

[Toby Teague]

My perfect squad, ignoring injuries:
1. Joe Marler
2. Dylan Hartley
3. Dave Wilson
4. Courtney Lawes
5. Dave Atwood
6. James Haskell
7. Chris Robshaw
8. Ben Morgan
9. Danny Care
10. George Ford
11. Jonny May
12. Kyle Eastmond
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Anthony Watson
15. Mike Brown

Including injuries:
4. Geoff Parling
8. Nick Easter
13. Jonathan Joseph

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I didn't realise that Cole was definitely out for X amount of weeks, for the 6N.
So that's Brookes on the bench for Wales, then?

 

[Toby Teague]

That's a good squat, but personally I'd go for Eastmond over Burrell and Care or Youngs over Wigglesworth