[2015 Six Nations] England

[ratsapprentice]

The Welsh scrum is likely to be as poor as it has been for quite some time this tournament. Lee doesn't need to stake his claim either, there's absolutely no genuine competition for him.

O h, I don't mean in regards to his competition - I mean that he could show his potential as a player who could be even better than Jones.

 

[Willodell100]

This looks to me like it is going to have to be a defensively 9 man game coming up from England with the ball not going out to,and certainly not passed, the 10.................in that case, might as well pick Myler at 10 for his kicking and the best defending players possible in the rest of the backs!!

Why would we have to play a defensive game?

 

[goodNumber10]

People dreaming of Slade and Eastmond etc... It ain't gonna happen.

As we saw in the AI's the next in line is 36, the midfield will be 36 & Burrell - if Burrells RTP goes badly Joseph will play at 13.

Bench will be Cipriani and Watson with Nowell starting at 14.

 

[Peat]

Tbh, I wouldn't be too upset if Lancaster goes for Twelvetrees & Burrell. It fits the pattern of the team and is proven to work together at 6N level. Ideally one of them makes a breakthrough and partners Tuilagi to give us a partnership capable of challenging the best. The only issue is the form of the individuals involved; if the coaching staff reckon they can put them in the right frame mentally, it works.

Joseph, much as I'd like to see him play, seems a more dubious long-term involvement, unless we can move Tuilagi in, and go with big man at 12/breaking ability at 13.

Love to see Slade play as well... lots of options with something, none too many safe ones.

 

[goodNumber10]

I think Burrell's poor form is slightly over egged on here.

He was the form 12 leading to the AI's till he got injured. He would have started had he not got hurt.

Since coming back he tore leicester a new one and has been pretty sold all around.

He had a poor game, in a poor Northampton team versus a good racing side with an inform Roberts (let's not forget RM92 are the only 100% side in the ERCC).

He will be fine at 13, and last year was a revelation in the position.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I think that Slade would be a great choice. Ford, Slade and Joseph would have a great kicking game, which could be a great weapon against Wales. Look if we don't have Burrell or Tuilagi than we can't do a gain line match up. Ireland instead used incredible box kicking and Sexton, with Ford and Slade we have a good right and left boot. Now Slade and Joseph have good defence and hopefully can create something in attack. But we will get twelvetrees....

 

[ratsapprentice]

Bench will be Cipriani and Watson with Nowell starting at 14.

I hope so - it's my preferred setup.

 

[goodNumber10]

I think that Slade would be a great choice. Ford, Slade and Joseph would have a great kicking game, which could be a great weapon against Wales. Look if we don't have Burrell or Tuilagi than we can't do a gain line match up. Ireland instead used incredible box kicking and Sexton, with Ford and Slade we have a good right and left boot. Now Slade and Joseph have good defence and hopefully can create something in attack. But we will get twelvetrees....

Slade won't feature.

Burgess will be called up. They want power.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Slade won't feature.

Burgess will be called up. They want power.

They probably do, but I think it would be smarter to try and turn around the big backs than try and run through them.

 

[Irishkid]

If 36 is picked we are going to get smashed.

 

[Peat]

They probably do, but I think it would be smarter to try and turn around the big backs than try and run through them.

It would be smartest of all to have a team that can do both as the opportunity opens up.

Ford, May, Brown, other winger, maybe Joseph, Care/Youngs - we will have plenty of backs that can step and accelerate.

We have a definite shortage on backs who can make yards simply by running hard at soft shoulders.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Why would we want to play a power game against Wales? The teams that beat them most convincingly have been Ireland and New Zealand. Neither have used the power game against Wales and instead relied on intelligent play and fast ball. Granted we can't play as fast or intelligently as either of them yet but at least we are playing to Wales weakness. Trying to play the power game is doing something else we also can't do but we are playing to Wales strength. That seems a very stupid thing to do. Our strongest area is easily the set piece so we want to use that as much as we can and keep the Welsh pinned in their half of the pitch.

Both teams shut down Wales at the breakdown.

 

[chippieolamus]

Why would we want to play a power game against Wales? The teams that beat them most convincingly have been Ireland and New Zealand. Neither have used the power game against Wales and instead relied on intelligent play and fast ball. Granted we can't play as fast or intelligently as either of them yet but at least we are playing to Wales weakness. Trying to play the power game is doing something else we also can't do but we are playing to Wales strength. That seems a very stupid thing to do. Our strongest area is easily the set piece so we want to use that as much as we can and keep the Welsh pinned in their half of the pitch.

Both teams shut down Wales at the breakdown.

So which backs would you start? Care, Ford, 12T, Joseph, Nowell, May, Brown is probably our best bet if Burrell and Eastmond are injured, with Youngs/Wiggy, Cips ad Watson on the bench.
Slade would be great, but I wouldn't feel comfortable giving him his first cap in a 6N opener in Cardiff.

 

[goodNumber10]

Why would we want to play a power game against Wales? The teams that beat them most convincingly have been Ireland and New Zealand. Neither have used the power game against Wales and instead relied on intelligent play and fast ball. Granted we can't play as fast or intelligently as either of them yet but at least we are playing to Wales weakness. Trying to play the power game is doing something else we also can't do but we are playing to Wales strength. That seems a very stupid thing to do. Our strongest area is easily the set piece so we want to use that as much as we can and keep the Welsh pinned in their half of the pitch.

Both teams shut down Wales at the breakdown.

No one is saying play a power game are they? People are saying play a complete game that gets you on the front foot which is a little different.

Both those teams you've cited play front foot rugby and break the gain line first then tackle line second.

Ireland kicked it in the corners and then used their pack to dominate Wales.

NZ use their close passing game to get their forward based power runners over the gain line.

Both set front foot targets and exploit them... that's just a simple fact.

 

[TheSaffycen]

No one is saying play a power game are they? People are saying play a complete game that gets you on the front foot which is a little different.

Both those teams you've cited play front foot rugby and break the gain line first then tackle line second.

Ireland kicked it in the corners and then used their pack to dominate Wales.

NZ use their close passing game to get their forward based power runners over the gain line.

Both set front foot targets and exploit them... that's just a simple fact.

Yes but two things- We don't have anyone near the level of Murray at scrum half when it comes to box kicking. Are forwards are no where near the level of NZ, in handling or actual tactical thinking on generating quick ball. If our pack can come out on top than surely someone like Slade would be more useful than Burgess. Someone who will pin Wales back other than someone who will run hard at Roberts ?

 

[goodNumber10]

Yes but two things- We don't have anyone near the level of Murray at scrum half when it comes to box kicking. Are forwards are no where near the level of NZ, in handling or actual tactical thinking on generating quick ball. If our pack can come out on top than surely someone like Slade would be more useful than Burgess. Someone who will pin Wales back other than someone who will run hard at Roberts ?

*shrugs* Well we don't have anywhere near the skill levels of New Zealand, nor the cohesion and tactical awarness of ireland, which were the two comparisons.

Anyway, I'm not advocating they bring anyone in, i'm just saying what i think they'll do...... I'm content for them to go 36 & Burrell. I think it's going to be a difficult enough 6Nations without wholesale unforced changes.

As i've said all along I think they badly need to sort the pack's ability to generate quick ball out before they worry about close or wide attacks with the backs.

 

[Willodell100]

It would be smartest of all to have a team that can do both as the opportunity opens up.

Ford, May, Brown, other winger, maybe Joseph, Care/Youngs - we will have plenty of backs that can step and accelerate.

We have a definite shortage on backs who can make yards simply by running hard at soft shoulders.

I think the issue is we have coaches that are fixed on a power based game plan. Not quite as fixated as Gatland but SL & particularly Farrell Snr do like this structure.

It has its merits but for me not very sensible as it is far too obvious and if you are picking players on size, unless you're very lucky, you're generally going to get players with a less rounded skillset.

Twelvetrees is an exception to this as he is both big (enough) and has good kicking and distribution (short and long) skills. That is why SL likes him but the issue is he hasn't been playing that well at Gloucester this season.

Like a few others on here and Austin Healey I do think Gatland is expecting a physical battle in the midfield. So why play into their hands? We are going to find it hard to go through them so why not, with the advantage of our pack being so good in the tight, of using that front foot ball to pressurise there backine in a way they won't be expecting. A more inventive and imaginative backline is exactly what we need.

I can guess what Roberts and Johnathon D would prefer we did.

Also if it's not on then Ford has proven his tactical and our of hand kicking is of the highest order.

 

[goodNumber10]

I think the issue is we have coaches that are fixed on a power based game plan. Not quite as fixated as Gatland but SL & particularly Farrell Snr do like this structure.

It has its merits but for me not very sensible as it is far too obvious and if you are picking players on size, unless you're very lucky, you're generally going to get players with a less rounded skillset.

Twelvetrees is an exception to this as he is both big (enough) and has good kicking and distribution (short and long) skills. That is why SL likes him but the issue is he hasn't been playing that well at Gloucester this season.

Like a few others on here and Austin Healey I do think Gatland is expecting a physical battle in the midfield. So why play into their hands? We are going to find it hard to go through them so why not, with the advantage of our pack being so good in the tight, of using that front foot ball to pressurise there backine in a way they won't be expecting. A more inventive and imaginative backline is exactly what we need.

I can guess what Roberts and Johnathon D would prefer we did.

Also if it's not on then Ford has proven his tactical and our of hand kicking is of the highest order.

What Front Foot ball is that then?

Not trying to be facetious here, but for all our Front 5 dominance we generate almost zero quality front football.

Our forwards don't beat the gain line, nor do our backs break the Tackle line, so where exactly does our front football come from that sucks in defenders and allows us to exploit space.

Unless we are going to run strike moves off every first phase play - which is unlikely - we have to have a game that can get that Welsh defence into transition,

 

[TheSaffycen]

@GN10
You know a thing or two about tactics, what team would you play and how would you set them up ? You don't have to go into detail with phase by phase ideas but something kind of in depth. If that make sense ?

 

[goodNumber10]

Well I absolutely would go with a gainline player in the back line.

In a perfect world my preference would be the team i named earlier in the thread: Corbs, Youngs, Cole, Lawes, Launch, Vunipola, Woods, Morgan, Youngs, Ford, May, Burrell, Tuilagi, Roko, Nowell

Out of what's left at the moment i'd look to play a back line of youngs, ford, may, 36, burrell, nowell, Brown.

Tactically i'd kick pretty much everything in our own half, move Halfpenny around and make him get in the air (he's good but not good enough) and then from our 10 on wards i'd be looking to use a midfield contact point from off the top ball to beat the gain line, then as we don't have the close passing game of your NZ etc... i'd be looking to use pick and goes and runners off youngs and ford to keep the welsh in transition.

The point isn't to just run head first into contact, but you use a power runner to hit gaps and suck defenders in and ultimately give your pack a target - Burrell is fantastic as this and once the welsh defence is going backwards and their line speed is shut down i'd look to utilise the wider game hinging off Ford and 36.

I think England got it almost spot on last year, you know who else get it almost perfect?

Saracens & Northampton.