[2015 Six Nations] England

[ratsapprentice]

As for Armitage - yes, I am interested in what he can bring. Yes, I would be ok in just ignoring/doing away with that rule in some ways. No, I don't see the point in ignoring the rule for one tournament only. Either use him or don't; the halfway house works for no one.

If anything... it's worse - "you can play abroad and then turn up when there is lots of media attention at the RWC".

 

[Peat]

One way of looking at it.

Me, I'm wondering what happens if we have an underwhelming 6N, pick Steflon for the World Cup, do very well with him as a star... what happens next 6N? Say "Oh, back to business as usual, ignore this seemingly key cog"? Extend exceptional circumstances?

Would be a mess.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The only grounds on which I'd find it at all palatable would be if he has signed for an English club after the RWC.

 

[Mumbles119]

If anything... it's worse - "you can play abroad and then turn up when there is lots of media attention at the RWC".

This... Agreed

 

[Patchey]

I honestly don't even know if we want or need Armitage, even if he was playing in England. Call me mad, I'm sure some will, but I am still cynical about his ability to A) Perform at a world class level in a team not full of world class players and B ) Keep that level of performance going consistently for more than a season.

And obviously we shouldn't break the rules for one tournament or, IMO for one player. Talk about Clark being a potentially flashpoint in an England squad, what happens when a French based player who actually tried to change allegiances after receiving English caps, turns up in camp and everyone else is told that he's the exception?

There are really so many arguments against his inclusion. But it keeps coming back because the English press just loves to look for quick fixes and short cuts to percieved problems with our sports teams. The Armitage affair is eerily similar to the persistent calls for KP to be called back into the English cricked XI.

 

[ratsapprentice]

There are really so many arguments against his inclusion. But it keeps coming back because the English press just loves to look for quick fixes and short cuts to percieved problems with our sports teams. The Armitage affair is eerily similar to the persistent calls for KP to be called back into the English cricked XI.

Massively so.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Talk about Clark being a potentially flashpoint in an England squad, what happens when a French based player who actually tried to change allegiances after receiving English caps, turns up in camp and everyone else is told that he's the exception?

That's the real crux of it, it isn't fair on players who know their international career is dependent on staying in the Premiership. If you're going to name "exceptional circumstances" they need to be genuinely exceptional, what's exceptional about his situation? He's a good player playing in a foreign country because the money's better, and hoping to play for England. That's exactly what the rules were designed to prevent, the very antithesis of "exceptional". He knows the rules, he's chosen Toulon and is trying to grab international rugby as a bonus on top of his first choice.

KP's different though ... he's a ****, no denying it, but he was treated like **** by his teammates at the end.

- - - Updated - - -

Agree with the basic point re: quick fixes though. Either drop someone or select someone and everything will be hunky-dory.

 

[Peat]

I honestly don't even know if we want or need Armitage, even if he was playing in England. Call me mad, I'm sure some will, but I am still cynical about his ability to A) Perform at a world class level in a team not full of world class players and B ) Keep that level of performance going consistently for more than a season.

Most London Irish fans I know still splutter at point A. From what I remember, I raise an eyebrow as well. He was, if not world class, then consistently performing at a standard that made his relatively few England appearances look baffling (far from the only flanker that happened to). And yes, he's consistently been very good over 3-4 seasons now. He does have a lot of help from his team mates there, its true, but still.

I'd agree there's a lot of unanswered questions about Armitage - but if he was performing to his week in, week out standard over here and Lancaster was ignoring him, the howls would be deafening. I'm all for blithely waving away claims of domestic form as of "so-so" relevance to the international game, but he has been one of the top performers at club level. In terms simply of England winning games, it would be very, very strange not to at least look at him close up - assuming he is eligible for selection.

And obviously we shouldn't break the rules for one tournament or, IMO for one player. Talk about Clark being a potentially flashpoint in an England squad, what happens when a French based player who actually tried to change allegiances after receiving English caps, turns up in camp and everyone else is told that he's the exception?

Hopefully no worse than the All Blacks do when SBW decides its time to code switch for more top silverware - which seems to be ok. They are there to win trophies and perform their best for their country; anything that helps them do that should be welcomed.

Obviously its not that simple, but this sort of parachuting isn't unheard of.

There are really so many arguments against his inclusion. But it keeps coming back because the English press just loves to look for quick fixes and short cuts to percieved problems with our sports teams. The Armitage affair is eerily similar to the persistent calls for KP to be called back into the English cricked XI.

We do love a short cut, its true. Our press love a good news story and controversy.

But I think it's a fair way off the mark to say its solely the press interested in Armitage playing for England.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I'm going say it Callum Clark is the traditional open side that England are missing!!!

He has always been an open side playing blind side for the saints with wood doing the opposite (playing 7 and being a 6).

That's gunna cause a stir I think

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Armitage or Clarke I'm going to cry if that was choices.

I'm going to panic and say Crane.

Just give Kvesic a chance for pete's sake.

 

[j'nuh]

One way of looking at it.

Me, I'm wondering what happens if we have an underwhelming 6N, pick Steflon for the World Cup, do very well with him as a star... what happens next 6N? Say "Oh, back to business as usual, ignore this seemingly key cog"? Extend exceptional circumstances?

Would be a mess.

It would be exceptionally poor planning on Lancaster's part to lose his marbles and knee-jerk into Armitage, and not attempt to bring through one of the flankers he's had in the wider squad for the last few years (Clark, Kvesic, Haskell) or even one outside the squad (Ewers, Seymour, Lund, Gibson).

 

[Peat]

It would be exceptionally poor planning on Lancaster's part to lose his marbles and knee-jerk into Armitage, and not attempt to bring through one of the flankers he's had in the wider squad for the last few years (Clark, Kvesic, Haskell) or even one outside the squad (Ewers, Seymour, Lund, Gibson).

Oh, very much so. Particularly when he could have probably got Armitage into the squad/home if he really wanted to.

But then we're talking about the guy pinning part of his hopes on Burgess making the complete jump from League to Union in about a calender year...

 

[Irishkid]

Most London Irish fans I know still splutter at point A. From what I remember, I raise an eyebrow as well. He was, if not world class, then consistently performing at a standard that made his relatively few England appearances look baffling (far from the only flanker that happened to.
To be fair I don't think we do splutter he was good for us but he left quite early and Delong did more for us. He's also meant to be quite an interesting character in the dressing room.

 

[Wendigo7]

Just nipping in to say I feel sorry for Ford and Cipriani a bit.

Ford has an 82% kick rate this season, second best behind Steenson and the best in Europe. His pack has gone to sleep once or twice but the blame has gone on him, who has been got to.. after 1 game in alot of people's minds he's not going to make it, which seems daft. I do think it's a case though that the jury is he's not going to make it regardless if he's the best player in the world for some people anyway. He could kick 10/10 for 5 games in a row and in some big ones, but as soon as he has a bad one (which in fairness, Bath are totally built around him), the chances are his team will lose and he'll look bad. He's 21 ffs. Carter only had a 59% kicking ratio last season and Cipriani only 70%... no one bats an eyelid. Just seems double standards.

Cipriani is unlucky for the opposite reason. He might be the best ball in hand player we have, but Lancaster is very much about stats. Ford comes out on top, just shading out Myler and Farrell. Cipriani is unlucky because being good in attack although helpful can't be put quantified as a stat. Lancaster looks at his goalkicking at 70% and says he's probably the 5th/6th best kicker in the league, one of the weaker kickers out of hand and that doesn't make up for his good attacking intent which is a shame because he is a good outhalf.

1 last note, I think Armitage has been told by the RFU he is in the wider world cup squad (I didn't look elsewhere so I'm not sure if this has been covered) on exceptional circumstances.

6. Robshaw
7. Kvesic
8. Armitage

Can only dream...

 

[Peat]

There's a piece in (I think) the Torygraph with Diamond talking about Cips, Toulon and England. Says that Cipriani has spoken with England and knows he's fourth in the pecking order. Basically, he sees a future chance of fighting his way in, or he doesn't and signs for Toulon.

I reckon it's going to be the latter and I reckon that's not very good for us.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Or Sale... ergo Rugby in England more generally.

 

[white9]

I would love to see Joe Simpson included in the Six Nations squad - his form has been electric this past few games.

Wade has also been brilliant, I think he's really worked on his physicality during rehab for his injuries and just slips through tackles routinely. He also seems to be working really hard on the analysis and improvement of his game.

Gutted Tuilagi will most likely be missing the start of the Six Nations as I would love to see how he plays with Ford - more decoy runs to spread the ball to May/Roko/Brown/Watson?

10. Ford 12. Slade 13. Tuilagi is the dream.

Lastly, realistically do we think Lancaster will include Cipriani in the squad this year? It really is now or never.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Cole out.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Cole out.

Cockers would be thrilled to have both manu and Cole during the 6N period.

 

[SWAGGER]

Both cole and Manu will be back playing by the end of January, maybe vs ulster away. I reckon both will play some part In the tournament. Cole more than Manu