[2014 TRC] New Zealand v South Africa in Wellington (13/09/2014)

[TRF_heineken]

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yes, I agree, Hein. His kicking game against Aus was superb. I think the comments here that he just kept kicking is also not accurate. Looking at the stats it shows that he ran with the ball twice as much as kicked and he had 2 defenders beaten. Just the handling let him down this game and the ABs had him marked quite well which is something he can't help; he needs more support and guys like Serfontein and Hendricks need to do more work off the ball.

Jan played very well IMHO. His defence on Conrad Smith was something to admire. Both Jan and Hendricks played great, and they were better than Willie in both defense and attack, IN THIS GAME.

I think the more these guys play together the more we will see their X-factor coming through as Jan, Hendricks and Willie certainly have X-factor qualities in them

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Jan played very well IMHO. His defence on Conrad Smith was something to admire. Both Jan and Hendricks played great, and they were better than Willie in both defense and attack, IN THIS GAME.

I think the more these guys play together the more we will see their X-factor coming through as Jan, Hendricks and Willie certainly have X-factor qualities in them

I certainly want us to retain those 2, yes. I agree we can only see us improve what with Le Roux having a poor day ITO his handling and Serfontein at 13 only for the 2nd time. If anything JdV has been the more ineffective center.

 

[William18]

I don't think its fair to say Le Roux's 'positional play is average and his kicking game is sub par'. It certainly was this game but there have been numerous games these last two years that his basic game at fullback was outstanding. I think what one can say is that he is very irratic though, in all aspects of his game. I still prefer him ahead of Kirchner.

Obviously I don't watch the South African games very closely outside of the big test matches. Le Roux's kicking was definitely poor in the last two weeks. He may have done some nice kicks vs Australia but he also put two out on the full. My comments about Le Roux's kicking are more to do with the fielding of kicks. Every time he fields a kick his response is to put up another bomb rather than run the ball. Obviously his stats aren't going to show him kicking all the time because if he is coming up into the backline in the centres then he isn't going to kick the ball.

If you are going to pick Serfontein and JdV then you need your wingers to come into midfield more and get you over the advantage line. It seems like you have picked two distributors and not one player who is good at crash ball.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Obviously I don't watch the South African games very closely outside of the big test matches. Le Roux's kicking was definitely poor in the last two weeks. He may have done some nice kicks vs Australia but he also put two out on the full. My comments about Le Roux's kicking are more to do with the fielding of kicks. Every time he fields a kick his response is to put up another bomb rather than run the ball. Obviously his stats aren't going to show him kicking all the time because if he is coming up into the backline in the centres then he isn't going to kick the ball.

If you are going to pick Serfontein and JdV then you need your wingers to come into midfield more and get you over the advantage line. It seems like you have picked two distributors and not one player who is good at crash ball.

Hmmmm... I think you have mixed Willie Le Roux up with Morne Steyn. Willie didn't kick out on the full vs. Australia, it was Ruan Pienaar and Morne Steyn.

And as for his tactical fielding of kicks, perhaps you should rather watch the tests the Boks played earlier in the year, where he counter attacked with great effect.

 

[nzlizard]

Based on SA's results while touring I expect to see them get 2 victories at home.

 

[William18]

Hmmmm... I think you have mixed Willie Le Roux up with Morne Steyn. Willie didn't kick out on the full vs. Australia, it was Ruan Pienaar and Morne Steyn.

And as for his tactical fielding of kicks, perhaps you should rather watch the tests the Boks played earlier in the year, where he counter attacked with great effect.

Hmm. I remember Le Roux making some kick errors versus Australia. As for his tactical fielding of kicks, I know his counter attacking ability is great. That's exactly why I'm having a go at him. He is this great counter attacking player and he hasn't done it at all in his last two games. If Kirchner was playing and kicking then I wouldn't be criticsing him.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Hmm. I remember Le Roux making some kick errors versus Australia. As for his tactical fielding of kicks, I know his counter attacking ability is great. That's exactly why I'm having a go at him. He is this great counter attacking player and he hasn't done it at all in his last two games. If Kirchner was playing and kicking then I wouldn't be criticsing him.

Well, I think you are being overly harsh on him with regard to the Aussie game. The wind was a howler and both teams tried to play the territorial game because of the wind and the rain. Willie use his boot effectively, and more so than our 2 chosen kickers (Pienaar and Steyn) in that match, the plan was to not Bomb Folau as much and to rather go for the corners, which he did.

As for the NZ game, we were very far behind with the territory stats, so we had to get our of our own 22...

 

[Icemn]

not sure why you guys are going on about willie le roux :? you have much bigger problems then him, like coach and gameplan...

wtf is it with Jannie and his contact lenses each time??? time wasting and letting the unfit boks get a breather...

 

[Darwin]

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yes, I agree, Hein. His kicking game against Aus was superb. I think the comments here that he just kept kicking is also not accurate. Looking at the stats it shows that he ran with the ball twice as much as kicked and he had 2 defenders beaten. Just the handling let him down this game (4 times losing posession! with Habana doing so twice and Hendricks thrice means our outside backs weren't effective ball in hand or at least in retaining posession) and the ABs had him marked quite well which is something he can't help; he needs more support and guys like Serfontein and Hendricks need to do more work off the ball.

The bad (on top of the backline):

JdB topping the missed tackle count at 5... a trend that hasn't bucked for 2/3 seasons now. We really needed Malherbe to stay fit.

Francois Louw was a passenger this game; Scrum.com has him at 3 runs for literally 0m, and 9 tackles missing 2. 38 year old Matfield made twice the number of tackles from lock and made more ground with half the 'runs'!! Not too mention his good line-out work; 7 takes and 2 steals.
With the amount of quality we have in the backrow Louw needs to unfortunately pay the price for sub standard performances. Coetzee to take over at open side with Alberts coming in surely? Or get Whiteley some time. 1 run, 1 defender beaten and 5/0 tackles is more than Louw did in 7 times the time.
Handling and the accuracy of kicking in general play was what let us down in addition to our set pieces going backwards with Bismarck coming on in the 2nd half. The fact we can count the number of offloads on one hand these last 4 games says a lot.

The good:

Our scrambling defense was effective and we bossed the breakdown for the most part being unlucky not to get a few more penalties IMO which we should get at home I'd imagine. Set pieces we were shading the ABs in the 1st half.

He certainly kicked a bit less this last match versus the AB's (only 7 times), but overall this Rugby Championship it appears he has been trying to kick the leather off the ball! Over the 4 matches his kick/pass/run stats read: 40 kicks / 31 passes / 45 runs. That means he has kicked 34% off the ball he has had. That is quite lot in my opinion. It is exactly twice as much a Dagg (17%) - the same Dagg who is himself frequently criticized for kicking the ball too often - and approximately 3x more than Folau (11%) or Smith (when playing fullback, 13%).

He does kick the ball quite a bit (though he often uses it as an attacking weapon), but usually doesn't kick it quite as much as he has recently. During the June series (when he was on fire) he kicked the ball 13/83 times (16%), and during the Super Rugby season he kicked it 120/540 times (22%). To me it appears that this increased focus on kicking has effected the rest of his game. He is usually a very instinctive player, but seems a bit unsure what to do when he gets the ball at the moment, and he was delaying his passes a lot versus NZ (I counted 4-5 that looked suspiciously forward...). I think a firing Le Roux is vital to South Africa, as his attacking skills - particularly his passing game - can really unleash the rest of the backline. I just don't think he he has been at his best in recent weeks....

Hmmmm... I think you have mixed Willie Le Roux up with Morne Steyn. Willie didn't kick out on the full vs. Australia, it was Ruan Pienaar and Morne Steyn.

And as for his tactical fielding of kicks, perhaps you should rather watch the tests the Boks played earlier in the year, where he counter attacked with great effect.

I remember Le Roux kicking the ball out on the full twice versus Australia too. This is indeed backed up by the match commentary here. He certainly wasn't the only one to make kicking errors that match, and he did make a couple of very good tactical kicks too, but his kicking was far from perfect that match.

 

[Big Ewis]

I'd like to make the argument, although it's debatable, that Scott Spedding would be a better fit for the Springboks. He's closer to the hulking profile S.A. prefers (1m87, 98kg, 28yo) than Le Roux, has a good kicking game, is older (but still athletic) and very secure at FB and doesn't seem as febrile as Le Roux (you wouldn't see what Le Roux did this match for e.g. from him). So he's much less turnover prone, has a steadier approach to counterattacking and is less reckless, and I doubt Le Roux is all that much more exciting ball in hand btw, puts in bigger, more secure tackles...

Seeing how S.A. play, I don't think they really need an electric FB, and Spedding isn't exactly boring either, he beats defenders off the step every single weekend and likes to get out and run.
I think with a steady, physically solid FB, along with Habana and Hendricks on the wings, they have a really strong back three.

For me, the only good there is in Le Roux's favor is he's younger and building for the future is always more positive and reassuring.

Oh and I almost forgot...plus, Spedding's got a Mortal Kombat face:

 

[Jack Reacher]

Some ABs seem to playing within themselves. People are knocking Conrad, Dagg and Nonu for not taking chances but I think they've had their 'license to play' restrained. Savea, Aaron Smith, Ben Smith and Read are still throwing 50/50 passes and grubber kicks but its about getting the balance right. A few years ago we had Howlett, Rokocoko, Muliaina, Sivivatu, Collins, So'oialo etc throwing all sorts of balls, which sometimes come off - but we used to get scores like 45-30 regularly. I think Hanson has rained that in for some players, which is needed.
In the tight five its obviously Rettalick and Crockett who have expansive roles with the others doing the hard yards hence why all the 'player ratings' claimed Franks, Coles, Thrush and Luatua had quiet games. Its a system people and it blimmin works!

 

[SomeOke]

We do need Willie, he's actually been pretty error prone since he's been selected you think about it, but at the moment we really need the creativity he brings to the side. We need someone who can take advantage of a counter attack or create a try, if we pick someone for "stability's" sake we're going back a couple years to when we had no method of getting our back line going. He's basically our primary play-maker.

 

[TRF_heineken]

We do need Willie, he's actually been pretty error prone since he's been selected you think about it, but at the moment we really need the creativity he brings to the side. We need someone who can take advantage of a counter attack or create a try, if we pick someone for "stability's" sake we're going back a couple years to when we had no method of getting our back line going. He's basically our primary play-maker.

Yeah, and the other fullbacks in SA are a bit green. Guys like SP Marais and Jesse Kriel have showed bits of how good they are but they are injury prone and make bad mistakes, worse than Willie.

I think how weird this may sound, that Willie is at the moment our safest bet.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Jaco Taute hasn't been as pacy on the outside break as he was pre-injurie(s). Cheslin Kolbe is just soo tiny. Pity Ludick didn't get a look in when he was on form. And then there is Mvovo who can be devastating ball in hand. Not so much the creator Le Roux is but capable of beating defenders. If WP can translate our attacking intent to Super rugby maybe Taute can get a look in. I'm still backing Le Roux at this stage though with Mvovo on the bench rather than De Allende. JPP also a good bench option covering 13/14/15 though Mvovo is the man who had more form.

 

[Larksea]

good game, I felt generally the AB's looked pretty good on attack but were just met with what I thought was a pretty special defensive effort from the boks. And the boks also managed what seemed like a pretty special try. Very unusual to see a try like that against the All Blacks that early in a game as well. I've not really watched a replay to see the detail in how it played out but it looked good.

Generally it seemed the AB's attack was all about Brodie Retalick looking like he was going to take the line on but passing to create a 2nd phase before the line. And a lot of forwards going up as pairs and passing before hitting the defense. Simple but it works because its not something the AB's do every week. I think its a key to all the success recently that the AB's don't go into every game with the same plan.

Not overly impressed with Cruden though he did come up with that kick which was a risky choice I thought it would have been better to keep the ball in hand with 2 springboks down injured, the kick seemed a bit "all or nothing" just lucky it came off with some superb work from Read & McCaw.

Barrett looked a bit better when he came on I still think his ankle is affecting him a bit.

I know I harp on a lot about Ben Smith, But it keeps on astonishing me how he makes ground and beats tackles when he has absolutely no right to at all. Time and time again he gets the ball flat footed with a set defense in front of him and somehow manages to get 10-15m+ he has absolutely no right to get and he doesn't just do it every now and then he seems to do it almost every time he gets the ball. And you cannot overestimate how much impact that has on a close game like that. He kick started the AB attack from nothing what 5-6+ times in that game? Clocked up 130+m and 7+ broken tackles all in heavy traffic against a set defense, it continues to defy logic that a skinny white kid can do that...

Dagg is back to being just average. Like everyone I want to see him back playing like he was a few years ago but the fact is his norm now is very average we could go the whole season and not see him pull off the stuff he used to do on a weekly basis back in 2009-2012. i think Smith at 15 and Jane at 14 would be better and ideally I would like to see Smith at 15 and Piutau at 14. My ideal world cup selection would have Kahui involved but we still have no idea if he will be back next year other than Both Kahui and Dave Renee are keen on the idea but nothing is solid.

And its still big news that we are winning tests without Tony Woodcock. Its safe to say our scrum is not as good as it has been with Woody there. Personally I would like to see More of Ben Franks and Less of Crockett but I'd also like to see Ben Franks give away less silly yellow cards. Good to see Joe Moody is developing well but on the flip side its also been a shame to see Charlie Faumuina lose so much ground?! I mean he got to the point where he was basically starting do demand starts ahead of Owen Franks based on form but now he's hardly in the picture?

We are missing a lot of key figures in the AB's now. Carter, Woodcock, Whitelock, Nonu, Kaino, Messam, Romano plus others and some fringe players too. Actually a pretty bad injury situation when you think about it.

 

[nickdnz]

Not overly impressed with Cruden though he did come up with that kick which was a risky choice I thought it would have been better to keep the ball in hand with 2 springboks down injured, the kick seemed a bit "all or nothing" just lucky it came off with some superb work from Read & McCaw.

It wasn't all that risky. We were playing with a penalty advantage. I was actually screaming at the television for him to make that kick.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Jaco Taute hasn't been as pacy on the outside break as he was pre-injurie(s). Cheslin Kolbe is just soo tiny. Pity Ludick didn't get a look in when he was on form. And then there is Mvovo who can be devastating ball in hand. Not so much the creator Le Roux is but capable of beating defenders. If WP can translate our attacking intent to Super rugby maybe Taute can get a look in. I'm still backing Le Roux at this stage though with Mvovo on the bench rather than De Allende. JPP also a good bench option covering 13/14/15 though Mvovo is the man who had more form.

Out of all those names you mention, only Ludik is playing at fullback mostly. Kolbe is more used on the wing like Mvovo, and Taute has been used as a centre most of the time. The problem is now, that they focus on other areas, and not the thing a fullback has to do every game.

 

[Icemn]

good game, I felt generally the AB's looked pretty good on attack but were just met with what I thought was a pretty special defensive effort from the boks. And the boks also managed what seemed like a pretty special try. Very unusual to see a try like that against the All Blacks that early in a game as well. I've not really watched a replay to see the detail in how it played out but it looked good.

Generally it seemed the AB's attack was all about Brodie Retalick looking like he was going to take the line on but passing to create a 2nd phase before the line. And a lot of forwards going up as pairs and passing before hitting the defense. Simple but it works because its not something the AB's do every week. I think its a key to all the success recently that the AB's don't go into every game with the same plan.

Not overly impressed with Cruden though he did come up with that kick which was a risky choice I thought it would have been better to keep the ball in hand with 2 springboks down injured, the kick seemed a bit "all or nothing" just lucky it came off with some superb work from Read & McCaw.

Barrett looked a bit better when he came on I still think his ankle is affecting him a bit.

I know I harp on a lot about Ben Smith, But it keeps on astonishing me how he makes ground and beats tackles when he has absolutely no right to at all. Time and time again he gets the ball flat footed with a set defense in front of him and somehow manages to get 10-15m+ he has absolutely no right to get and he doesn't just do it every now and then he seems to do it almost every time he gets the ball. And you cannot overestimate how much impact that has on a close game like that. He kick started the AB attack from nothing what 5-6+ times in that game? Clocked up 130+m and 7+ broken tackles all in heavy traffic against a set defense, it continues to defy logic that a skinny white kid can do that...

Dagg is back to being just average. Like everyone I want to see him back playing like he was a few years ago but the fact is his norm now is very average we could go the whole season and not see him pull off the stuff he used to do on a weekly basis back in 2009-2012. i think Smith at 15 and Jane at 14 would be better and ideally I would like to see Smith at 15 and Piutau at 14. My ideal world cup selection would have Kahui involved but we still have no idea if he will be back next year other than Both Kahui and Dave Renee are keen on the idea but nothing is solid.

And its still big news that we are winning tests without Tony Woodcock. Its safe to say our scrum is not as good as it has been with Woody there. Personally I would like to see More of Ben Franks and Less of Crockett but I'd also like to see Ben Franks give away less silly yellow cards. Good to see Joe Moody is developing well but on the flip side its also been a shame to see Charlie Faumuina lose so much ground?! I mean he got to the point where he was basically starting do demand starts ahead of Owen Franks based on form but now he's hardly in the picture?

We are missing a lot of key figures in the AB's now. Carter, Woodcock, Whitelock, Nonu, Kaino, Messam, Romano plus others and some fringe players too. Actually a pretty bad injury situation when you think about it.

i need to have a look at it aswell... i think it came form a 1st phase movement aswell, maybe a line-out... if so, maybe the blacks were expecting the usual maul and SA surprised them...

Ben smith is reminding me of my hero christian cullen more and more each time, even his running style looks like culley... cullen is still miles better though bite me Darwin...

i think the opposition struggles against Crockett come scrum time, crockett is quite tall for a prop, that is why they use him, he is 1.93m - please show me another prop and tell me how that can not be an advantage... plus he has been working on his penalty count aswell, he use to be a penalty machine...

i think sam and messam are back for the next game

 

[nickdnz]

I don't know why South African's are discussing other options than Willie Le Roux. When playing his natural game he's by far the most dangerous and creative back South Africa has. He had a bad game, it happens. Israel Dagg has had a bad two years..

i think the opposition struggles against Crockett come scrum time, crockett is quite tall for a prop, that is why they use him, he is 1.93m - please show me another prop and tell me how that can not be an advantage... plus he has been working on his penalty count aswell, he use to be a penalty machine...

Well, as a reasonably tall prop myself (1.88m)- the disadvantage comes at getting very low at scrum-time while keeping a straight back. You get away with it easier at LH prop, but it's not all that much of an advantage in scrummaging.

 

[Jack Reacher]

We are missing a lot of key figures in the AB's now. Carter, Woodcock, Whitelock, Nonu, Kaino, Messam, Romano plus others and some fringe players too. Actually a pretty bad injury situation when you think about it.

its funny how the Aussies use that excuse as soon as one of their starters go down, they are already writing off the third test due to injuries. NZ is never allowed to use that as an excuse because we use our squad so well. We've used a fourth string lock, third string first five, third string blindside - even Corey Jane is probably our third string winger behind Piutau this year but if we lost we would not cry about injuries!