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2014 Six Nations: Ireland vs Wales (Round 2)

Umm, what? Not sure you really know what you're talking about or if you've watched any of the current England back 3 mate. They've been the most dangerous out of any back 3 in the tournament so far. Brown was the best You once said that Twelvetrees would be the worst 12 in the rabo, had no idea where you got that from especially as hes gone on to achieve national/British Lions honours

It's not an unfair comment imo. North, Cuthbert and Halfpenny are a more menacing back three than England's for me. That's not to say that Norwell, May and Brown in particular haven't been playing well, but I know which unit would worry me more.
 
Umm, what? Not sure you really know what you're talking about or if you've watched any of the current England back 3 mate. They've been the most dangerous out of any back 3 in the tournament so far. Brown was the best You once said that Twelvetrees would be the worst 12 in the rabo, had no idea where you got that from especially as hes gone on to achieve national/British Lions honours
I did? When? Where? Link?

Is Mike Brown as good as Leigh Halfpenny?
Is Jack Nowell as good as Alex Cuthbert?
Is Luther Burrell as good as Scott Williams?
Is Billy Twelvetrees as good as Jamie Roberts?
Is Tom May as good as George North?

In my opinion, not one of the above English players is as good as their Welsh counterpart. As such, "average in comparison to Wales" is a valid statement.
 
Yea I agree, you couldn't really say England's back 3 is much better than Ireland's, but in no way is it better than Wales'.

And as for the Kearney thing, it was a joke, they even posted a picture of them both out that night. I think everybody needs to stop getting their knickers in a twist over nothing.
 
I did? When? Where? Link?

Is Mike Brown as good as Leigh Halfpenny?
Is Jack Nowell as good as Alex Cuthbert?
Is Luther Burrell as good as Scott Williams?
Is Billy Twelvetrees as good as Jamie Roberts?
Is Tom May as good as George North?

In my opinion, not one of the above English players is as good as their Welsh counterpart. As such, "average in comparison to Wales" is a valid statement.

Better.
Not yet, but more well rounded - will continue to get better, whereas Cuthbert will stay as good as he is now until his pace starts to fade, as he offers little else.
Yes.
Debatable - Twelvetrees more skillful.
At the moment, yes. Very different styles though.

Obviously I'm biased, but Brown vs Halfpenny is no contest at the moment. Brown is better at all aspects other than goalkicking, which ain't really in the 15's job description.
 
England are better than Wales at 15 and arguably 13 in my opinion, luckily Ireland are better than both at 15 anyway and probably 13 depending on which BOD shows up. All three backlines are almost incomparable at the same time, three very different styles.
 
On Rob Kearney's behaviour after Paddy Jackson's try, I've no issue. He was standing up for a teammate after one of Liam Williams' patented cheap shots. Mike Phillips too was standing up for a teammate.

It wasn't the bravest standing up for a team mate I've ever seen 'hold me back' lads! The laughing. Yea. Not his finest moment. As for the twitter stuff. Cringe.
 
I did? When? Where? Link?

Is Mike Brown as good as Leigh Halfpenny?
Is Jack Nowell as good as Alex Cuthbert?
Is Luther Burrell as good as Scott Williams?
Is Billy Twelvetrees as good as Jamie Roberts?
Is Tom May as good as George North?

In my opinion, not one of the above English players is as good as their Welsh counterpart. As such, "average in comparison to Wales" is a valid statement.

All debatable of course but someone said England's backs were 'average', which is a pretty lazy assessment.
 
I did? When? Where? Link?

Is Mike Brown as good as Leigh Halfpenny?
Is Jack Nowell as good as Alex Cuthbert?
Is Luther Burrell as good as Scott Williams?
Is Billy Twelvetrees as good as Jamie Roberts?
Is Tom May as good as George North?

In my opinion, not one of the above English players is as good as their Welsh counterpart. As such, "average in comparison to Wales" is a valid statement.

I just find it frustrating when people use such terminology to describe players they haven't much watched.

Sure, if you phrase it in such a way as only one backline can be quality and the other one has to be no better than average, then of course you'll be saying Wales are better because they're far more settled and experienced.

Looking at those face-offs again:

15: As Olyy says, Brown is making metres and beating defenders for fun. Over 100 metres against Scotland despite the sludge. He has facets to his game whch Halfpenny has shown glimpses of but doesn't consistently bring. With a 10 who can kick goals like Farrell, albeit not as good a percentage as Halfpenny, I'd happily have Brown above Halfpenny
14: I've always thought Cuthbert was a small firmware upgrade on Banahan.. ok, maybe a bit harsh. He's a winger for certain weather. A born finisher but he's not the same in the team on the back foot. Nowell isn't just a finisher,he beats defenders and makes ground when there's no room to do so. For his size he's also a far better defender than Cuthers.
13: Evens. I don't know about Burrell being better than Williams but neither do I think Williams stands out above Burrell. They are completely different players.
12. Roberts may not be at his best but he's still a go to man for Wales and getting them over the line so I'd give it to him. But Twelvetrees is playing pretty well, making good yards, distributing well. He'll continue to improve and with the right partner at inside centre I think he could be one half of a very good partnership.
11. Norths a bit of a star really. This said, JOHNNY May is electric and runs round entire defences. He beats defenders in simply a different way to North. He does things North can't do, and by the same token North does things May cannot hope to do. You'd have to opt for North right now given all the evidence but May is tearing it up and you can't dismiss him as average just because you'd prefer North. Give him a handful more games with England and see where his reputation is. The other thing is that George North looks pretty human sometimes; he makes defensive mistakes, yet for some reason people are oblivious to it because he'll also do things like fireman lift an opposition player. Cuthbert gets all the stick but North can be equally fallable.

If you'd watched much of these guys you wouldn't call them average. Besides this comparison, surely the more pressing fact is that this tournament so far the England backs have simply looked better almost man for man, and that's despite 4 of them having about 10 caps between the lot of them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying by any means we have a better backline than Wales, but to call a young backline average when they're looking exciting and sharp against older more experienced teams, is very unfair.

In terms of yesterday, I think next week game Wales will put out Tipuric and Warburton. Lydiate can be so slow in rolling away on the floor, you can't afford tardiness like that when trying to keep the penalty count low.
 
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I guessed they tailored the game plan for this match, but my point was we haven't seen a huge amount of clinical back play from Ireland yet, they'll need that in the coming week. I hope they do, and I'm sure they have it in them!
 
England are better than Wales at 15 and arguably 13 in my opinion, luckily Ireland are better than both at 15 anyway and probably 13 depending on which BOD shows up. All three backlines are almost incomparable at the same time, three very different styles.

This is also a very lazy assessment . I'm not sure if there's anyone 11-15 from Ireland that if prefer to have than the lads we have got other than BOD from 6 years ago . All our lads need is more time to settle . Next game will be tough but twickers will be a game evener .
 
This is also a very lazy assessment . I'm not sure if there's anyone 11-15 from Ireland that if prefer to have than the lads we have got other than BOD from 6 years ago . All our lads need is more time to settle . Next game will be tough but twickers will be a game evener .

I think it is fair to say that both sets of fans are happy with their respective backlines and wouldn't want to swap. I'm confident that we have the ability to turn England over at twickenham but it's going to be very tough. Has the makings of an epic!
 
To be fair to O'Mahoney, he has really stepped it up this year but he has an awful cry baby face and interacts with the ref a bit too much for my liking. If he tried some of the stuff he does with a ref like Nigel Owens, for example, he could put himself and his team at a huge disadvantage. He was fantastic yesterday, wasn't my man of the match but he was in the top three, the other two are from Ulster though and RTÉ don't hand out MOTM to Ulster players often.


In fairness, if he won 10 turnovers and scored 5 tries he wouldn't be your MOTM.
 
POM is one of those guys for whom sheer determination and desire have taken him further than others expect and first impressions are hard to shake. That is my humble opinion.
 
This is also a very lazy assessment . I'm not sure if there's anyone 11-15 from Ireland that if prefer to have than the lads we have got other than BOD from 6 years ago . All our lads need is more time to settle . Next game will be tough but twickers will be a game evener .

Hardly, I compared Kearney to Brown and in my opinion Kearney is the stronger and far more rounded of the two players and I compared Burrell to O'Driscoll and I think BOD is still the better of the players his attack may not be what it used to be but he has cut 'shooting' out of his game and is an absolute rock in defence and I think you may want to change 6 years to 3 months if you're looking for the last time BOD was unquestionably the better player than Burrell!

Comparing 11 - 15 of Ireland and England, as I said before there is little point because of the varying styles but there is not a single English player in there who is definitively better than their Irish counterpart whereas I think on Ireland's side D'Arcy and Kearney are both better players than their opposite numbers, in Kearney's case he is just a level above Brown not that Brown is a bad player but Kearney is the best fullback in Europe at the moment and has been on top form since Ireland played the All Blacks and in D'Arcy's case because he's playing like he's in his prime and the roles between him and BOD have been reversed with BOD now playing second fiddle, 36 isn't doing anything wrong for England he's just not doing a whole lot right.

In fairness, if he won 10 turnovers and scored 5 tries he wouldn't be your MOTM.

In fairness, I thought Henry and Best were better! O'Mahoney got some great turnovers but Henry slowed the ball down at about 75% of the rucks and made life hell for the Welsh whereas O'Mahoney got the steals but wasn't constant like Henry. Best on the other hand didn't do a thing wrong all day and did a lot right and played a stormer. I know I'm not O'Mahoney's biggest fan by any stretch of the imagination but I try my best not to let that cloud my judgement, it was the same with Murray last year, I didn't rate him because I didn't think he was playing well consistently but since the Lions tour he has been top class and I have started to really enjoy watching him play and I'm extremely glad to have him on the team.
 
Hardly, I compared Kearney to Brown and in my opinion Kearney is the stronger and far more rounded of the two players

I'd say they're on a very level playing field right now.
Maybe Kearney a bit better in the air, Brown a bit better running the ball. The thing that'd make Kearney stand out is that he's been on people's radar's longer. He's looking back to his 09 best, and over the past 5 or so years has been (or at least been at times) one of the top 15s in the world, whereas Brown has only really shone in the last couple of seasons.
 
I'd say they're on a very level playing field right now.
Maybe Kearney a bit better in the air, Brown a bit better running the ball. The thing that'd make Kearney stand out is that he's been on people's radar's longer. He's looking back to his 09 best, and over the past 5 or so years has been (or at least been at times) one of the top 15s in the world, whereas Brown has only really shone in the last couple of seasons.

Yeah, I agree with that, Brown is the better of the two running ball back, Kearney is the best player under the high ball in the world right now and I think the work he does with his back three and joining the backline is just that bit better/more experienced than Brown at the moment but that might just be that Kearney is playing in a better club backline and with Johnny Sexton rather than Eoin Farrell at international level.
 
Instead of comparing like for like on backs lads it's more getting best out of them in a given gameplan. For example Ireland did a lot of up and unders Saturday and this falls right in to Kearneys skill set. Brown isn't any bit near Kearney in ariel ability. But I think Browns role in English plan suits him. So this talk of who has better backs is irrelevant it's how you utilize them.
Either way wouldn't say that England's 11-15 are average either as I think any of them would hurt you if given an opportunity
 
Instead of comparing like for like on backs lads it's more getting best out of them in a given gameplan. For example Ireland did a lot of up and unders Saturday and this falls right in to Kearneys skill set. Brown isn't any bit near Kearney in ariel ability. But I think Browns role in English plan suits him. So this talk of who has better backs is irrelevant it's how you utilize them.
Either way wouldn't say that England's 11-15 are average either as I think any of them would hurt you if given an opportunity

Pretty sensible quote tbh although mike brown is great in the air although has been unusually shaky in the last 3 weeks (weather maybe ?) still not quite as reliable as Kearney . 1/2penny is better than Kearney in the air though IMO isn't as good as Kearney overall at the moment . Agreed that each person brings different things to the game though
 
I can't help but feel this argument is somewhat besides the point as you don't determine how to attack a team based on their backline's overall and attacking quality. You determine how to attack a team based on how good their defence is, how it will function and how good your attack is.

England's defence is pretty good against ball in hand. All of the backs are very physical, the positioning is good, the line speed is excellent. It is assisted by a very athletic pack in which Lawes and Launchbury are arguably better blindside flankers than Wood at the moment. Run it? That's pretty bold. I'm looking at the Ireland team and the only guy who's going to win a lot of collisions in a big way is Healy. That's it. I'm not seeing anyone who'll jink through either. The wingers are not sufficient to make hay with minor amounts of space so they won't go wide to run as the drift will catch them. If Ireland run it a lot, it'll be like Ulster-Saracens last year, except this time I'll be on the winning team.

Where I think Ireland will fancy their luck will be, surprise surprise, the kick and chase. May and Nowell are young, neither is a renowned aerial expert, Brown's decent but beatable, Farrell's actually quite bad at taking high balls when dropping back. In contrast Ireland have an excellent chase and an excellent half-back combo for kicking. I don't see Ireland playing much rugby outside the 40m line. Why would they? The England defensive line will be hard to breach, I don't think the Ireland team has too many long distance tries in them and their kicking game is magnificent. The other bonus is that once they've kicked, they'll probably force a kick back, possibly into touch. Ireland's maul is currently gigantic. It is their big attacking weapon. The logical answer is for England to try and keep it infield, but that comes with problems of its own, Ireland's back three can certainly something of broken field situations.

Of course, they'll run some of it, but only once they've got territory. I don't think they'll turn down running opportunities from deep if they occur, but they won't, so they'll rely on the boot and the maul to get them where they want to go. From there, it will be patient multi-phase rugby. Just moving England around and waiting for a gap. I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of one off rugby, Murray just asking a forward to take it into contact, suck in a couple of guys, then present quickly. Schmidt will prefer defenders sucked in to yards I think (obviously he'd like both). When the gap appears, then we'll see it go a bit wider... but I don't think that will happen much. I'm not one to trumpet England overly, but if you try attacking us when our defensive line is set you'll get sat down unless you've got something very special. Which Ireland currently don't. To be honest, I don't think this one will be one for the casual fan. I think both sides will find a lot more out of playing the percentages than trying something sexy.

That is the Gospel according to Peat.

Coming into the 6 Nations, I wasn't a huge fan of Peter O'Mahony. He's clearly talented if he knuckles down but the player who turned up for Ireland in the past frequently seagulled on the wing rather than doing a forwards job (taking up the mantle of Anthony Foley and Marcus Horan) and got involved in every single argument on the pitch (like Denis Leamy and, again, Marcus Horan). He seems to have gotten his act together recently and is putting together the sort of performances he's capable of. Stephen Ferris won't just waltz back into the side when he regains fitness. O'Mahony is a worthy competitior for the Ireland 6 jersey.

POM's been good, but if Fez comes back in full fettle he'll have to move. Or Fez could I guess. But I can't see Schmidt turning down the chance to play a genuinely firing Ferris and POM hasn't been *that* good. That said, POM could probably play 7 or 8 and in this form, I think you'd look at that.
 
@Maverick it's not saying Brown is poor in air he's just not as good as Kearney and vice versa with Kearney regards open field runner. Player fit different game plans.

@Peat. In fairness POM has been that good but with regards Fez. Can he make it back? And if so will he ever reach the levels of before?
 
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