2014 QBE Internationals [EOYT] England

[Patchey]

So now that eastmond might be out we have only one 12 and one 13.

...yet it doesn't look as though we're even considering playing the 13 at all, and it doesn't look like we're considering playing the 12 at 12,

Begs the question why include joseph at all if you won't pick him. Very frustrating.

I guess Joseph is there in case Brad calls over?

Where is the Eastmond out news coming from?

Lancaster said he doesn't want 'wholesale' change so I imagine that only injury will cause changes to the starting XV.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

^ Oh this is just the Daily Fail (link on the match thread) suggesting that Eastmond has an illness. Exactly what we need- our best back from the previous game injured!

 

[Mikel92]

Cole's yellow was justified, talk of Hartley having to be punished for it is crap.

Not really. I mean ideally there would be no ****le, and none of this at all, and a cynic might say it's just a pitty Coles got the wrong guy. But I really have little patience for people who antagonize others. You wanna hold on to someone's shirt and hold them down after a ruck has finished, and you get a bop in the nose ... you forfeit your right to go "oh Sir, dangerous!!?". If you don't like, don't be a prick. Simple.

And I would still espouse this opinion (and have) if the boot was on the other foot. Best example I can think of is Jimmy Cowan holding Bakkies Botha's shirt, and Cowan ending up receiving a head butt. Yeah we should stamp out the violent stuff, but if you've instigated something then it ain't much use gawking round like a stunned mullet.

You know exactly why you got the reaction you did, and you can bloody well eat it.

 

[Maverick1987]

Not really. I mean ideally there would be no ****le, and none of this at all, and a cynic might say it's just a pitty Coles got the wrong guy. But I really have little patience for people who antagonize others. You wanna hold on to someone's shirt and hold them down after a ruck has finished, and you get a bop in the nose ... you forfeit your right to go "oh Sir, dangerous!!?". If you don't like, don't be a prick. Simple.

And I would still espouse this opinion (and have) if the boot was on the other foot. Best example I can think of is Jimmy Cowan holding Bakkies Botha's shirt, and Cowan ending up receiving a head butt. Yeah we should stamp out the violent stuff, but if you've instigated something then it ain't much use gawking round like a stunned mullet.

I can't agree . It's a dangerous precedence to set if you say as long as someone has done something to you you can retaliate . I've seen people hit players arms when they are holding before nothing gets done to the retaliating player . Imo just because someone is holding your shirt doesn't mean you can kick or punch

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Not really. I mean ideally there would be no ****le, and none of this at all, and a cynic might say it's just a pitty Coles got the wrong guy. But I really have little patience for people who antagonize others. You wanna hold on to someone's shirt and hold them down after a ruck has finished, and you get a bop in the nose ... you forfeit your right to go "oh Sir, dangerous!!?". If you don't like, don't be a prick. Simple.

And I would still espouse this opinion (and have) if the boot was on the other foot. Best example I can think of is Jimmy Cowan holding Bakkies Botha's shirt, and Cowan ending up receiving a head butt. Yeah we should stamp out the violent stuff, but if you've instigated something then it ain't much use gawking round like a stunned mullet.

You know exactly why you got the reaction you did, and you can bloody well eat it.

You are seriously thick if you believe any of what you wrote above. In any case, not here, not now - the pathetic trolling of New Zealand posters ruined the other thread already - please don't post here about this.

 

[Mikel92]

Just has always irritated me when the person to retaliate gets pinged. Yes they shouldn't have done that, but whoever was ****ling them off the ball shouldn't have done that either. I realize New Zealand teams do it too. Everyone does it. And my sentiment is the same. It's not politically correct but meh.

Why Henry? Because someone disagrees with you? Trust me pal, it'll happen a lot in life.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Lets just say this. Hartleys action was pathetic and stupid. Cole's reaction was unjustified IMO as you can't just punch or kick guys who hold your shirt. The way to deal with this is simple, refs clamp down on these stupid fouls by penalising them. But I can't see how you can allow or be seen to be allowing retaliation of any kind.

 

[Mikel92]

It's just an accountability thing. If you're going to start being stupid with your actions on the field, then things happen. Get on with it, make a tackle, move on, and we'll have ourselves a grand game.

 

[nickdnz]

the pathetic trolling of New Zealand posters ruined the other thread already

Mmm, those Kiwis sure are animals. Good you and I are English and invariably on the side of right.

GOD SAVE OUR GRACIOUS QUEEN, LONG LIVE OUR NOBLE...

It's just an accountability thing. If you're going to start being stupid with your actions on the field, then things happen. Get on with it, make a tackle, move on, and we'll have ourselves a grand game.

Mikel, drop it. It's England's thread - and we had to close a match thread already. Any opinions on selections for the rest of the tour would be good.

 

[Mikel92]

Oh I've got an opinion alright..

 

[j-dawg]

Holding shirts always has and always will happen, every single team does it multiple times a game. You can't kick/stamp. Simple as that.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Kyle in training - obviously over his illness otherwise he'd still be quarantined.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Mmm, those Kiwis sure are animals. Good you and I are English and invariably on the side of right.

GOD SAVE OUR GRACIOUS QUEEN, LONG LIVE OUR NOBLE...

Give it a break mate. Imagine what you want but in truth I'm actually 'post-nationalist' (if that exists)- Except when it comes to rugby - I still press the mute button when it comes to our anthem and rarely feel any nationalistic pride.

Let's look at the facts - there were at least 6 people moaning in the most teenage boy fashion about the referee, and also saying things like

"For some reason England (fans) believe they are equal to NZ (3 wins in 21 years!) and no one has the right to win at 'Twickers'. " !!?
"Not in any other sport where a team is so average do their supporters act as if they're best on display, every time." !?!?

Then you've got
"See experience counts for something, good old Andrew "baby seal hunter" Hore would of sorted that situation out quick smart.... ask Bradley Davies about that one!"

These were predominantly your own posters, not ours. In fact that may be some awful England fans out there but very few seem to be on this forum.
The only thing we did was complain about Mccaw , and everyone does that. Plus when an English poster made a comment about Owens it was almost invariably followed by...."But TBF, New Zealand were deserved winners and it wouldn't have changed the result..." etc

To see so many posters in one place suggesting that a stamp and shirt pulling should be punished equally is embarassing and galling for a forum like this - and for you to suggest that both nations posters were as bad as each other is equally bad.

I agree with everyone who says it would be great to get rid of the ****ly stuff in rugby, but the first step in that is to acknowledge its endemic to the sport, and to open our eyes wide enough to see that it's not just Dylan Hartley - Mikel92, I appreciate you've already acknowledged New Zealand players do it too - but it does beg the question why we notice it so much more when its a specific individual.

RUGBY: Thanks for that rats - it looks as though we're practicing our minutes silence!?!?

 

[ratsapprentice]

No - they were doing the 2 mins silence at 11/11/11

 

[nickdnz]

Give it a break mate. Imagine what you want but in truth I'm actually 'post-nationalist' (if that exists)- Except when it comes to rugby - I still press the mute button when it comes to our anthem and rarely feel any nationalistic pride.
Let's look at the facts - there were at least 6 people moaning in the most teenage boy fashion about the referee, and also saying things like
"For some reason England (fans) believe they are equal to NZ (3 wins in 21 years!) and no one has the right to win at 'Twickers'. " !!?
"Not in any other sport where a team is so average do their supporters act as if they're best on display, every time." !?!?
Then you've got
"See experience counts for something, good old Andrew "baby seal hunter" Hore would of sorted that situation out quick smart.... ask Bradley Davies about that one!"
These were predominantly your own posters, not ours. In fact that may be some awful England fans out there but very few seem to be on this forum.
The only thing we did was complain about Mccaw , and everyone does that. Plus when an English poster made a comment about Owens it was almost invariably followed by...."But TBF, New Zealand were deserved winners and it wouldn't have changed the result..." etc
To see so many posters in one place suggesting that a stamp and shirt pulling should be punished equally is embarassing and galling for a forum like this - and for you to suggest that both nations posters were as bad as each other is equally bad.
I agree with everyone who says it would be great to get rid of the ****ly stuff in rugby, but the first step in that is to acknowledge its endemic to the sport, and to open our eyes wide enough to see that it's not just Dylan Hartley - Mikel92, I appreciate you've already acknowledged New Zealand players do it too - but it does beg the question why we notice it so much more when its a specific individual.
RUGBY: Thanks for that rats - it looks as though we're practicing our minutes silence!?!?

Yeah, plenty of people moaning about the referee. He had a very bad match in many peoples eyes, and there are plenty of contentious issues to talk about. England posters ***** about referees as well, not so much in the last match (I'm not going to speculate why). Complaining about things you want to complain about, like McCaw, does not make it any better. And there were plenty of posters which were posting stupid comments. Someone obviously had to bring up BOD, in a reply to an obviously dumb post. Like these things aren't going to get reactions from members trying to be diplomatic. There was also plenty of talk about the game discussing some of the rough calls. What there was also a lot of is self-righteous remarks focusing on a few dumb comments, and more annoyingly tarring a whole bunch of posters with the same brush. Plenty of NZ people saw the Coles kick as yellow, there were other issues in the match such as Whitelock's grounding of the ball which Owens didn't award, penalties at the scrum which were inconsistent and lead to a penalty try - and the influence of continual replays of events which influenced decisions. Again, even if you disagree with all of them, and you may well do, it didn't make everyone discussing them and thought Owens had a shocker was all of a sudden a NZ troll. They weren't even digs at England, and I can understand how it could feel like putting the boot in after a winning by complaining about refereeing, but there were issues which overall seemed bad for the game IMO. Some comments were graceless, but the ones just trying to discuss them also get abused. There is plenty of hypocrisy going on, and if you're reflective enough you'll realize it.



How do people feel Rokoduguni went? England really seem to have trouble bringing their wings into the game, and I can't help but feel part of the reason was just a lack of creativity in the centres.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Roko went well.

Defensively solid against a guy who had up until Saturday averaged 2 tries per game against us.
He didn't really get a chance to stretch his legs, this is nothing new, and probably wont start to happen until we start selecting players at 10, 12 and 13 that have shown that they can run an effective backline without complete and utter forward dominance. There is no point in just sticking 1 player capable of distributing with any degree of finesse in the middle of 2 players who have consistently shown that they are generally lackluster in attack at international level.

Most people feel that George Ford would go a long way in helping this issue, but he's too small apparently... Aaron Cruden isn't fit to play for England going by that argument.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Many selection issues ... something is obviously not working, so although wholesale changes seem unlikely there are several areas where changes should be considered. For my money, the first thing I would do is drop Farrell. Iv'e defended him for years, never been one of the Farrell Haters, but he was woeful. He's an incredibly one-dimensional player, who is picked for kicking, defense and game management. Not one of those things did he do above the level of a mediocre premiership player today. I don't believe he isn't good enough for the England ten shirt in general but that sort of performance cannot be allowed to wash. Get back to Saracens, prove you are actually worth your place now, not because "you've done it before and we know you've got it in you, it's just a matter of time. One of the advantages of coaching an international team over a club team is your players have another team in which to find their form. Use it. So, bring Ford in, there've been concerns upthread about his tactical kicking game but it's actually very good for Bath this year, a couple of mistakes but a lot of very intelligent well-executed stuff which far outweighs that - his tactical kicking is certainly a damn sight better than Farrell's was on Saturday. Althoguh Care was equally poor, he gets another chance because Youngs wasn't any better and there's no obvious alternative. He's also been truly world class more recently than Farrell.

There's also clearly something wrong with the back row balance, Wood seeming to be the obvious weak link - although no pack expert, I feel he's too similar to Robshaw, and together they offer neither a ball carrier nor an over-the-ball player, which is a problem with Launchbury out (Webber actually does quite a bit of that for Bath, although I haven't seen it so much in an England shirt) so that leaves a back row with one ball carrier and zero breakdown experts. Kvesic might be worth a punt but from what I've seen he hasn't been on great form for Gloucester...I prefer Haskell, and go for the extra ball carrier. Vunipola (although not my first choice) is a marked man because he's the only major threat from back row. He actually played well, considering how difficult his task was made by the selections around him.

To get back to *****ing at Farrell, I'm completely bamboozled by this idea that he can play twelve. What is it about him that is supposed to make him a centre? Yes he is a very good defender, but in a style which doesn't necessarily suit the twelve channel. Aside from that, he doesn't run good lines; he's not a crash ball runner; he doesn't make breaks; he certainly doesn't distribute or playmake, we've seen that at ten for years; he doesn't make half-breaks and offload. There are many different styles of centre, he doesn't have the skillset for any of them in my opinion. I'm really at a loss for what the logic is behind the suggestion.

Finally, Roko. For God's sake use him.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Most people feel that George Ford would go a long way in helping this issue, but he's too small apparently... Aaron Cruden isn't fit to play for England going by that argument.

Yes, a ridiculous argument ... point me to all the 18 stone bruisers playing international rugby at ten. His tackling's not at Farrell's standard, but it's not like he's a revolving door at Bath, I think his defensive "frailties" get exaggerated.

 

[goodNumber10]

What there was also a lot of is self-righteous remarks focusing on a few dumb comments, and more annoyingly tarring a whole bunch of posters with the same brush.

I'm presuming that's aimed at me, considering you said it then deleted/edited your post and locked the other thread. I never sad it was all New Zealand posters, i said there were obvious trolls and i was the first person to say close the thread - any form of diplomatic discussion had broken down due to the majority of NZ based posters trolling hard.

I'll also say this, for someone who wants it dropped you're sure in an England thread getting stuck in about it again.

Plenty of NZ people saw the Coles kick as yellow, there were other issues in the match such as Whitelock's grounding of the ball which Owens didn't award,

As in the other thread i'm still to see anything showing the ball was clearly touching the line, if it wasn't he was offside and knocked it on. If anyone can show me a shot fo the ball on the whitewash then fair enough...

Again, even if you disagree with all of them, and you may well do, it didn't make everyone discussing them and thought Owens had a shocker was all of a sudden a NZ troll.

No, it doesn't make everyone a NZ troll, just the vast majority of them who clearly were.

They weren't even digs at England,

Clearly they were.

They singled out the Hartley incident as poor reffing because Hartley got away with pulling a shirt at a ruck and Coles got binned for violent play. At every ruck you watch someone has their shirt pulled, the scrum half the defensive post whateveer.... making out that Hartleys was some cynical ploy to get Coles sent off as many fo th NZ posters have done is utterly ridicolous.

To then go on and on about the Video ref, it's just tiresome... the outcome was the same but it was portrayed as a plot to cont the Kiwis out of a try. even though the TMO see's the same TV feed as everyone else, and it was one replay... yes one

It's also incredibly disigenious ot only talk about one part - many of the english posters discussed the hartley coles issue decently not a single NZ poster was willing to discuss the MCCaw stuff that was frequently brough.

Not a single person, including yourself was ready to discuss that were they? Why is that?

Some comments were graceless, but the ones just trying to discuss them also get abused. There is plenty of hypocrisy going on, and if you're reflective enough you'll realize it.

There was seldom anyone with a little NZ flag under their avatar trying to discuss anything graciously.

How do people feel Rokoduguni went? England really seem to have trouble bringing their wings into the game, and I can't help but feel part of the reason was just a lack of creativity in the centres.

He went very well for a first hit out, read the game well, didn't take on too much and contributed a solid defensive performance. It wasn't really down to the centres, but more down to the slow static ball England got due to Richie McCaw killing ever yruck.

 

[nickdnz]

I'm presuming that's aimed at me, considering you said it then deleted/edited your post and locked the other thread. I never sad it was all New Zealand posters, i said there were obvious trolls and i was the first person to say close the thread - any form of diplomatic discussion had broken down due to the majority of NZ based posters trolling hard.

Well you're wrong, it wasn't aimed specifically at you.

I'm not bothering with the rest of the post.