2014 QBE Internationals [EOYT] England

[goodNumber10]

hard to argue with that Peat.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I feel the most sensible thing to do is to wait and see how the window unfolds. Three wins (no flukes) and the world is rosy and that is definitely achievable.

But the problem is a lot of people - myself included - have these long term doubts about what England are doing and they saw those doubts fulfilled again vs New Zealand. So the urge to say all of them is there.


Anyway, I don't see us beating South Africa through either a possession game or a territorial game alone. We need to be able to execute both.

Agreed, but do we have the players in place to implement that ? We don't have a Du Preez at scrum half, we either have a running one or a kicker. Same with the fly half position as well, Myler is the most all round player but he isn't intl' standard so what do we do ?

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Can I just say I really appreciate the quality of the posting on this thread!

I think I must have been focused on the general tension of the game because I didn't

But the problem is a lot of people - myself included - have these long term doubts about what England are doing and they saw those doubts fulfilled again vs New Zealand. So the urge to say all of them is there.

Could you expand a bit on that? I'm interested because personally I do have some issues with what we've been doing but in general these are more on the level of selection, well and also our backs/attack coaching which doesn't seem to exist or have any positive impact upon our game at all. In terms of long-term where we're going I'd say I'm pretty happy.

Thing about Saturdays game is that, unlike Wales, I really don't think we can claim to have played well. We didn't do a lot right really, despite a generally good pack performance. Therefore its encouraging to have come *fairly* close on the scoreboard, though I do feel it was a flattering score to us.

Disappointed that we can't even claim guys like Watson and Ford learned a lot from this - they didn't play for long and its a shame.

 

[ratsapprentice]

We don't have a Du Preez at scrum half, we either have a running one or a kicker. Same with the fly half position as well, Myler is the most all round player but he isn't intl' standard so what do we do ?

Err... Ford is the best running FH and on his day is also the best tactical kicker we have.
We definitely do have a FH who can run and kick well.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Err... Ford is the best running FH and on his day is also the best tactical kicker we have.
We definitely do have a FH who can run and kick well.

I had Cipriani as the best we have, but in the squad yes Ford is the best runner. His kicking has looked good from the few games on BT, but he seems to have a habit of hitting it dead. Means he's got some boot on him though, and twickers is pretty big isnt it ? I would like to see Ford given at least 40 in the next game, if not the whole game if he's going well and the whole game v Samoa. Do you have any doubts about him and Eastmond though ? Defensivley they give up ground against the likes of Wasps and Saints, look at the size of South Africa.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The only area I'd have Cips ahead of Ford is his long passing game and a bit more vaguely, occasionally George tries to do it all himself.

Ford is waaaaaay ahead of everyone else as a runner - stats from last season:

And this season:

 

[goodNumber10]

ha! any excuse for you to break out the stats, eh, @ratsapprentice?

 

[TheSaffycen]

The only area I'd have Cips ahead of Ford is his long passing game and a bit more vaguely, occasionally George tries to do it all himself.

Ford is waaaaaay ahead of everyone else as a runner - stats from last season:

And this season:

I'm sorry but look at the Bath pack v the Sale pack.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Cipriani is easily a better runner than Ford.
I'm surprised it's even up for discussion :huh:

 

[ratsapprentice]

His running efficacy isn't affected too much by how the pack goes.
Our pack was well and truly beaten by Glasgow yet he still made loads of metres and beat loads of defenders.

Sale's pack is one of the best around when both Seymour and Braid are playing.
Unless you are arguing that George only beat 6 times (!) more defenders than Danny did last season because he had a better pack?

It's irrelevant anyway - Cips isn't in the squad.


Whaaaa?

George's running game is his thing, even more than it is for Cipriani!

 

[Peat]

Agreed, but do we have the players in place to implement that ? We don't have a Du Preez at scrum half, we either have a running one or a kicker. Same with the fly half position as well, Myler is the most all round player but he isn't intl' standard so what do we do ?

There's the rub.

We don't have a shortage of fly-halves with decent tactical kicking games who can distribute. Scrum-half and inside centre are the main issues. Somewhere we probably have to accept a limited square peg to go into the square hole. But it can probably be done.

Mindyou, our kicking game would be greatly improved by an effective chase.

Could you expand a bit on that? I'm interested because personally I do have some issues with what we've been doing but in general these are more on the level of selection, well and also our backs/attack coaching which doesn't seem to exist or have any positive impact upon our game at all. In terms of long-term where we're going I'd say I'm pretty happy.

Thing about Saturdays game is that, unlike Wales, I really don't think we can claim to have played well. We didn't do a lot right really, despite a generally good pack performance. Therefore its encouraging to have come *fairly* close on the scoreboard, though I do feel it was a flattering score to us.

Disappointed that we can't even claim guys like Watson and Ford learned a lot from this - they didn't play for long and its a shame.

I don't think this coaching team learns from their mistakes; I don't think they have the right balance when it comes to judging personality vs ability; I don't think they seem able to put out a team to carry out a cohesive attacking strategy; I don't think they're capable of managing a squad to have players fresh at the right time and have the right players against the right opposition; I don't think their priorities for what makes an international team successful are right.

And a few more things.

Oh, and I am very dubious as to whether Andy Farrell is the best backs coach England could get, and I've never been happy about having the potential for accusations of nepotism in the squad.

And I'm still not convinced their statements on discipline are as consistent as they should be.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I think Farrell snr. has his place in the team... but I think you'd be a fool to suggest that Alex King couldn't significantly better our attacking capabilities in a matter of weeks.

 

[TheSaffycen]

There's the rub.

We don't have a shortage of fly-halves with decent tactical kicking games who can distribute. Scrum-half and inside centre are the main issues. Somewhere we probably have to accept a limited square peg to go into the square hole. But it can probably be done.

Mindyou, our kicking game would be greatly improved by an effective chase.



I don't think this coaching team learns from their mistakes; I don't think they have the right balance when it comes to judging personality vs ability; I don't think they seem able to put out a team to carry out a cohesive attacking strategy; I don't think they're capable of managing a squad to have players fresh at the right time and have the right players against the right opposition; I don't think their priorities for what makes an international team successful are right.

And a few more things.

Oh, and I am very dubious as to whether Andy Farrell is the best backs coach England could get, and I've never been happy about having the potential for accusations of nepotism in the squad.

And I'm still not convinced their statements on discipline are as consistent as they should be.

I would love Rob Baxter to become our head coach. Backs coach wise Alex King from Saints would be nice, or just any NZer to make some changes in mentality
Edit: Damn rats got there ahead of me

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

There's the rub.

We don't have a shortage of fly-halves with decent tactical kicking games who can distribute. Scrum-half and inside centre are the main issues. Somewhere we probably have to accept a limited square peg to go into the square hole. But it can probably be done.

Mind you, our kicking game would be greatly improved by an effective chase.



I don't think this coaching team learns from their mistakes; I don't think they have the right balance when it comes to judging personality vs ability; I don't think they seem able to put out a team to carry out a cohesive attacking strategy; I don't think they're capable of managing a squad to have players fresh at the right time and have the right players against the right opposition; I don't think their priorities for what makes an international team successful are right.

And a few more things.

Oh, and I am very dubious as to whether Andy Farrell is the best backs coach England could get, and I've never been happy about having the potential for accusations of nepotism in the squad.

And I'm still not convinced their statements on discipline are as consistent as they should be.

You mean the trade off between personality and ability is a one way direction - with 'team personality' winning out always? I'd be inclined to agree though I haven't thought much about it. I would hope for example that Wood isn't picked over Haskell on the basis of personality & squad fit - because if that's the case it suggests Haskell won't be getting a look in any time soon, despite being more talented.

Around squad management, I'd like to see us developing a Saracens-esque system whereby we can rely on more than just 15 first choice starters. In fact I think we saw in a number of cases the advantage the southern hemipshere through the bench - guys brought on by Australia made a huge difference because none of them were all that far from being first choice themselves. To get to that point you have to give opportunities to your wider squad where possible.

That's where I'd return to this whole game-time issue around, amongst others, George Ford.

I'm somewhat confused about our coaching system - I though Catt was backs coach and Farrell more generally defense coach, across the whole team?
I'd love to see someone like Shane Howarth brought in to have a role.

The main thing I don't think is being coached well enough is decision making and organisation. On a number of levels. You have the captain who I would argue is not that important in terms of decision making, which in my view is done every minute of the game by each individual player. A key leader needs to be the scrum half to go the right ways, but also to marshall the forwards. By the same token our forwards need to be a pack in the sense of a shared group mentality, whereby they would all do the same thing given a situation with ball in hand. So our pack runners need to be making decisions to offer themselves this way and that to the 9 and 10.

Scrum V and pundits keep harping on and on about psychology and composure as being the only reason the North doesn't regularly beat the south but it's more than that, it's understanding of the game, creativity, decision making, skillset. Until we improve those things we will continually fall short.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Farrell is the backs coach.

Catt is the skills coach.

Talking about the coaches made me wonder what sort of makeup most teams have, this is by no means exhaustive, because not all teams readily list their current coaching staff.
But it's as accurate as I could find:

 

[goodNumber10]

LOL you and your stats & spreadsheets

interesting breakdown though Rats.

Has anyone seen this in the Mail (***spit***) Farrell to 12, Ford to 10.

Owen Farrell and George Ford could rekindle their junior partnership this weekend as England consider naming both players in the starting line-up to face South Africa.

With Kyle Eastmond struck down by illness, head coach Stuart Lancaster could be short of options in the midfield for Saturday's Test against the Springboks.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ru...Ford-set-handed-fly-half-role-Springboks.html

 

[TheSaffycen]

How could that possibly be the best way to go ?
Ford-Barritt-Joseph surely ?

 

[Peat]

How could that possibly be the best way to go ?
Ford-Barritt-Joseph surely ?

Simples!

Step 1: Fazlet must play
Step 2: Ford is probably a better fly-half
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit

Meanwhile, back in reality...

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

So now that eastmond might be out we have only one 12 and one 13.

...yet it doesn't look as though we're even considering playing the 13 at all, and it doesn't look like we're considering playing the 12 at 12,

Begs the question why include joseph at all if you won't pick him. Very frustrating.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If you're going to shoehorn a flyhalf in at centre then it really should be Slade.
He's looked infinitely better/more comfortable in the centres than Farrell ever has.