2014 QBE Internationals [EOYT] England

[goodNumber10]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/29682970

...He's comparing himself to BOD. Wow.

hahah! I'll be honest here that's not quite how i read it...

 

[ratsapprentice]

hahah! I'll be honest here that's not quite how i read it...

He's reffering to himself when he talks about "older players"...

"And those older players are the best players. They might have lost a yard or two - like Brian O'Driscoll did - but they know what's happening that split second earlier and they react to it."

That is literally what he's doing.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Rumours are that Clark could be involved in the EPS which would really **** me off.

Urgh, still?!

The thing is, apart from him not being that great, and apart from him being one of the worst human beings in professional rugby, he's obviously not trusted by the management - how many years has he been in the EPS and not gotten a cap?

 

[nickdnz]

I tend not to agree with him in regards to wingers anyway. Wing is one of those positions that it just pays to have the athleticism and naivety of youth. I think wingers tend to take those 'safe options' because they just end up with too much doubt over their own abilities, and you lose out that way. I think Strettle would be a real step back for England. I agree with him that I think England's biggest problem in regards to wingers - and players in general - is their inability to decide to stick with a guy. Constantly picking every form player, so you end up with a different 22 every series (sometimes multiple ones per series) just means no one has had the time to build combinations.

It is ridiculous in my opinion that with less than a year to the World Cup, England are unsure of who is their best option at 10, 11, 12, 14 and even to an extent 15. Yarde wasn't bad at all against the All Blacks - and surely he'll only improve - so why the heck would people need to try every other option (including their starting centre) on the wing? It is insane to me that Haskell and Danny Care are the two most experienced players in the squad - and both of them have only around 50 caps and have never been a long term starting option. I feel like England have just ruled out winning the RWC and instead decided that they may as well give themselves 6 years to work out what their team should be in time for 2019. But what is weirder still to me is that the players it seems like England giving a go are hardly going to be world beaters anyway. Strettle? Barrett? Maybe Myler?!

 

[goodNumber10]

He's reffering to himself when he talks about "older players"...


That is literally what he's doing.

I don't agree, at least i don't think it's meant like that, and lets be honest it's probably been tweaked to read easier.

anyhoooo....

 

[goodNumber10]

It is ridiculous in my opinion that with less than a year to the World Cup, England are unsure of who is their best option at 10, 11, 12, 14 and even to an extent 15.

I'm not sure it's as up in the air as everyone thinks it is....

Yarde wasn't bad at all against the All Blacks - and surely he'll only improve - so why the heck would people need to try every other option (including their starting centre) on the wing? It is insane to me that Haskell and Danny Care are the two most experienced players in the squad - and both of them have only around 50 caps and have never been a long term starting option. I feel like England have just ruled out winning the RWC and instead decided that they may as well give themselves 6 years to work out what their team should be in time for 2019. But what is weirder still to me is that the players it seems like England giving a go are hardly going to be world beaters anyway. Strettle? Barrett? Maybe Myler?!

true, it's all a bit All blacks 2007

 

[Peat]

I tend not to agree with him in regards to wingers anyway. Wing is one of those positions that it just pays to have the athleticism and naivety of youth. I think wingers tend to take those 'safe options' because they just end up with too much doubt over their own abilities, and you lose out that way. I think Strettle would be a real step back for England. I agree with him that I think England's biggest problem in regards to wingers - and players in general - is their inability to decide to stick with a guy. Constantly picking every form player, so you end up with a different 22 every series (sometimes multiple ones per series) just means no one has had the time to build combinations.

It is ridiculous in my opinion that with less than a year to the World Cup, England are unsure of who is their best option at 10, 11, 12, 14 and even to an extent 15. Yarde wasn't bad at all against the All Blacks - and surely he'll only improve - so why the heck would people need to try every other option (including their starting centre) on the wing? It is insane to me that Haskell and Danny Care are the two most experienced players in the squad - and both of them have only around 50 caps and have never been a long term starting option. I feel like England have just ruled out winning the RWC and instead decided that they may as well give themselves 6 years to work out what their team should be in time for 2019. But what is weirder still to me is that the players it seems like England giving a go are hardly going to be world beaters anyway. Strettle? Barrett? Maybe Myler?!

I agree with pretty much everything you've said but large amounts of it aren't Lancaster's fault. Johnson did not pass down an experienced squad full of quality. Most of the best players, at that time, had ten or so caps at best. There were a lot of holes that required plugging with total newbies. There was never any chance from the beginning of us rocking up with plenty of centurions and half-centurions.

Likewise, a lot of the best options are fairly young now and were very young when Lancaster started. The uncertainty and sometime slowness of maturing as a player has not helped him. There's been a lot of dips in form, a lot of unlucky injuries.

Take fly-half. When Lancaster started, he had precisely one fly-half with experience who'd still be around come the big event - Flood. Flood picked up a lot of injuries when he should or could have been contending for the shirt, until he got frustrated with being second choice and went to France. Possibly careless of Lancaster to let that happen, but there are limits to man. In his place... Farrell was 21, Burns was 22, Ford was 19, and Cipriani was emotionally 5 when Lancaster started. How do you establish a pecking order in three years there? Ford might have established himself in the summer but for injury. Burns' form last season tanked.

And so on. I feel there have been self-inflicted wounds. The obsession with Ashton for example. And full-backs on the wing. May should have probably been in the squad earlier, everyone knew his talent would demand a chance sooner or later. But then there's been at least once, I think twice, when Ashton has looked set to be dropped and every other winger around gets crocked. Out of our good wingers, I think only Jonny May was over 20 when Lancaster started.

Ultimately, I feel like every sane England fan in the world knew that winning the World Cup in 2015 was a long shot from the moment Lancaster started. There has been simply too much patchy development of players before him. There was never going to be a truly battle-hardened squad ready.

But then I'm not sure Lancaster is overly bothered about that.

 

[nickdnz]

I'm not sure it's as up in the air as everyone thinks it is....

true, it's all a bit All blacks 2007

Hardly, I think in 2007 everyone could name the best team (maybe with some confusions in the wings - but the decision between Sivivatu, Rokocoko, Howlett and Rico Gear is not exactly the same problem England have on the wings is it). I think most people would generally agree that there was a best team possible, it is just Henry was a bit obsessed with building player depth. Even that I don't think contributed to us losing as much as not having a Plan B (as well as some new, ****ty English referee). I think the 2007 RWC had better players in it than our 2011 squad (Conrad Smith said as much recently) - it seems it was more a problem of not knowing how to use those players to best effect throughout a tournament. Not sure England's situation is comparable. We were playing McAlister instead of Mauger, Sivivatu instead of Howlett...England is playing Barrett instead of whoever the other -15 cap player may or may not be...).

As for Peat: Yeah I totally get what you're saying. I just can't help but feel compromises in selections where they don't need to be. I agree with Strettle in regards that it seems young players are so often thrown under the bus and starting from scratch, rather than sticking with them under the knowledge that they're not going to be able to necessary beat the All Blacks regularly, they may not come close, but sticking to some young players with 10 years of development they may one day be able to in three or four years. It seems the logic is the picking someone like Barrett (I am aware he did ironically beat the All Blacks) or Strettle, that they may be able to come close this time around, but there is no development taking place and no future in picking a 31 year old wing (whose best qualities is his self-confessed ability to know when to not back himself.)

 

[g6mcg]

He's reffering to himself when he talks about "older players"...



That is literally what he's doing.

He's attributing good decision making to himself, but it's disingenuous to say he's comparing himself to O'Driscoll. He's only saying they've both used their experience to remain effective as their physical abilities have declined.

 

[ratsapprentice]

He's only saying they've both used their experience to remain effective as their physical abilities have declined.

Exactly - that would be comparing himself with BOD.

I posted it half-jokingly, but the comparison he is making is ludicrous.

 

[Patchey]

Manu Out.

JJ for 13, or else I'll cry.

 

[nickdnz]

Exactly - that would be comparing himself with BOD.

I posted it half-jokingly, but the comparison he is making is ludicrous.

Well, when making an example people tend to pick what they feel is the epitome of the example. What Strettle was trying to do in my opinion is point out that players get better with experience (which is the only advantage Strettle has over younger more promising wingers). So I don't think he was going for the angle of "I'm experienced, skilled and wise like O'Driscoll" but rather going for a more "there have been great players like O'Driscoll who excelled in their 30s, so me being 31 doesn't mean I don't potentially have plenty to offer". It would seem more ludicrous if he picked a player like Iain Balshaw as his example (not saying he was bad in his 30s, just hardly a strong push for selection)...

 

[TheSaffycen]

Manu Out.

JJ for 13, or else I'll cry.

I would be suprised if we didn't have the Bath centres with Farrell at 10. Maybe Farrell and Burrell with Joseph, depending on the wingers we pick. If we have Yarde and Nowell then I would rather have Burrell and Joseph as we lack carrying power. If we have Roko and Yarde then have Eastmond who can bring the playmaking into the game.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Well, when making an example people tend to pick what they feel is the epitome of the example. What Strettle was trying to do in my opinion is point out that players get better with experience (which is the only advantage Strettle has over younger more promising wingers). So I don't think he was going for the angle of "I'm experienced, skilled and wise like O'Driscoll" but rather going for a more "there have been great players like O'Driscoll who excelled in their 30s, so me being 31 doesn't mean I don't potentially have plenty to offer". It would seem more ludicrous if he picked a player like Iain Balshaw as his example (not saying he was bad in his 30s, just hardly a strong push for selection)...

This. I don't think Strettle is trying to compare himself to BOD, merely saying that experienced players have something to offer and using BOD as a prime example.

 

[Peat]

Nick, we're almost definitely not going to pick Strettle. We've not picked him for a year. He's been given a chance, found wanting, and now the kids are here.

This side has been developing game on game, year on year. The odd selection of expedience doesn't alter the overall process.

 

[Toby Sweeney]

Thing is Barritt isn't BAD as such, he is just a defensive player more than an attacking one. He was brought in to an England setup that was already one of the worst attacking teams in the NH and unsuprisingly did nothing to change that. Now if you have more creative players around him and better wings then his lack of attacking ability won't be such a problem and his strong defense could actually work well. Having said that we never play with an attacking mindset and even now our first thought seem to be to grind down opposition and keep kicking. The last 6N was a change primarily due to the number of injuries we had. People like Mike Brown would start a counter attack rather than simply booting the ball back to the opposition every time it got into our 22.

Unlike other players, I wouldn't have a problem seeing Barritt back but ONLY if we develop creative play elsewhere. If we don't then it's simply blunting out attacking capabilities too much.

It won the world cup in 2003, everyone thinks a kicking defensive game is bad.

 

[welshglory]

Its also won all world cups post 03

 

[ratsapprentice]

Ok... here we go (grouped by position):

<spoiler>

Sorry for raping your screens. I would have spoilered them, but the spoiler style on here doesn't work with images.



</spoiler>

 

[ianw16]

^^^
Don't want to quote the above for the sake of the server. However, surely all that is based on club rugby? Not a sufficient standard to be picking internationals on, is it? It's a bit late in the day to be trying unproven players, this close to a WC, so I imagine England's selectors will be picking from what they already know. In summary, what you've seen so far is likely to be as good as it gets. Not good if you're looking at 10,12,13 in my humble opinion.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Those are the players like to be selected. Unlike NZ we don't have many players who have unquestionably nailed their position. There are still big question marks about a number of players.