2014 QBE Internationals [EOYT] England

[j'nuh]

Barritt may not be a big carrier, but that's not the only way to break down a defence. Strong defence leads to turnovers, and the phase after a turnover is when a team are at their weakest in defence. A good tackle is certainly worth a good carry, even in attack.

Also, I would be interested in his rucking skills. Maybe he can't open up defences (imo too much emphasis is put on the "glossy" stats available to us - defenders beaten, clean breaks, meters made etc. - and not enough is made of the other, less visible skills, .e.g. why do ESPN not report gainline success? it's often enough brought up as a stat on tv...), but maybe he can ruck for those who can. Do you want Eastmond clearing out a Tuilagi break, or Barritt?

It doesn't bother me that Barritt can't make decent carries that much. We have enough players elsewhere in the squad who can. What I think could be terminal to his chances is if he takes momentum out of attacks. If he's a poor distributor, that would really bother me.

Whatever the case, Barritt does have strengths and I think they could work well with the right combination of players. I'm just disappointed that Twelvetrees has seemed not to make it, because I think he's still the most balanced 12 we have. It's just a shame that he turns off in games quite frequently.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Thinking a little more on who's playing 12 vs the ABs, I'm starting to understand a little more why Lancaster was planning on using BB and Tuilagi.

The All Blacks are going to put out either Fekitoa or SBW at 12, both very difficult to defend against - combine that with Ford at 10, who is shaky on defence, then I can understand wanting Barritt there to contain them.
Eastmond is a good tackler, and he did well chopping down runners in the first test in New Zealand, but I could understand the reluctance to partner him with Ford against SBW/Fekitoa. Then again, the only way know if they can handle it is to try it - better to have a crack at it now, than in a RWC knockout game.

 

[ratsapprentice]

FWIW

Totals (limited to last 15 games at IC for those with more than 15 test caps there):

Per game averages (some of the games for some of the players were from the bench, while statistically significant to a degree - I'd suggest these averages are still broadly representative of the true average):

Those are only from games played at IC.
"Turnovers" is turnovers conceded - that includes things like knock-ons and intercept passes... literally anything that causes a turnover of possession.


Edit = just looking at the Matt Scott DB entry... I'm pretty sure I made an input error there! :lol:

 

[TheSaffycen]

I always thought that SBW was really hard to defend because of his ability too offload and to bring players into the game around him. I would be more scared about Eastmond playing Nonu again or Fekitoa. Because of his league knowledge I think Eastmond would do well, might get steam rollered but you can always use Farrell to cover him if SBW keeps running down the 10/12 channel. Again I normally remember things wrong and being 6ft4 and 108kg so he wont be easy to stop but I would fear someone like Slade defending against him as he isn't use to defending against guys like SBW. I don't know if 36 has ever played against SBW ?

 

[Wendigo7]

So 36, Fofana and nonu are the best 12s going then?

 

[ratsapprentice]

They would all definitely be in the top 5 - they all fulfill different roles in the same position though.

If you were going to compare BB to the players above, I'd suggest that JdV, Roberts, Scott and D'Arcy are the most similar in terms of the role they play in their respective teams.
They are the defensive leaders and by and large their main offensive role is a fairly direct one - hit it up or draw and pass to the outside man.

Now.. I personally wouldn't say Brad does a whole lot of distribution for England, beyond "give it to Manu" - and based the games I've seen (all of them) he is not a dangerous ball carrier.
He is a fairly safe ball carrier (he's conceded very few turnovers) buthe's not really troubling defenses - which means that they don't really need to hang around to see whether he's been tackled.
If they can see someone marking him, they can be almost certain that the tackle will be completed and that they can just drift to the men outside him. And because he's not really gaining much ground in the tackle the ball will be quite slow.

Going forward - there isn't much to say other than that you will probably retain possession and that Manu will receive a solid if telegraphed pass.

I know he's actually far more creative for Saracens - but the fact is that he hasn't done that for England.

Paired with a more threatening 12 and playing at 13 I can see that Brad may have a role to play - assuming that he has the requisite pace to burst through a gap with a flat pass from his 12 and to then be able to draw and pass or offload to his support runners. That's a big IF, however.

Just to make sure we are under no-illusions here - I do, really, genuinely rate Brad - there are very big question marks over his ability at international level though.

 

[Patchey]

Interesting the D'Arcy comparison, who is both a centre who formed a handy partnership with a much more creative player outside him and also one who has been able to step out and play 13.

I have a horrible feeling this rib injury Eastmond picked up is going to see him out of contention. I didn't see the game but it would just be our luck...

 

[TheSaffycen]

Two points in the video
1. These are the kind of carries that Barritt makes all the time. Into heavy traffic and placing the ball perfectly back for the scrum half.
2. It shows his lack of vision in attack. If it isn't a set piece move like a wrap around or second line pass then he normally takes up the ball. Hook has rushed up very quickly and I feel someone like Eastmond would have noticed this and taken advantage. On a side note I can't see what's outside him and if you pause at the 0.07 mark the only player looking at the gap is Ransom and Kvesic is there, so possibly not the ideal thing to do is shift the ball on.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

All this talk about Barritt seems pointless at the moment because we aren't exactly weak in defence, we are weak in creativity, attacking ability and utlising our wings. If we get those sorted and defence becomes and issue then maybe we should look a Barritt but currently he is the solution to a problem we don't have.

 

[j'nuh]

Two points in the video
1. These are the kind of carries that Barritt makes all the time. Into heavy traffic and placing the ball perfectly back for the scrum half.
2. It shows his lack of vision in attack. If it isn't a set piece move like a wrap around or second line pass then he normally takes up the ball. Hook has rushed up very quickly and I feel someone like Eastmond would have noticed this and taken advantage. On a side note I can't see what's outside him and if you pause at the 0.07 mark the only player looking at the gap is Ransom and Kvesic is there, so possibly not the ideal thing to do is shift the ball on.

I think that this is a very important point.

The vast majority of phases do not result in breaks. If you're attacking from 30m out or whatever, it's likely that you'll go through several phases of play before finding an opening in the defensive line. You absolutely need players that can carry, take a hit, and recycle, and I don't mean just in the forwards either. I'm not bothered about Barritt making tons of breaks if he's making these types of carries.

It bothers me the idea of a Ford-Eastmond-Joseph axis, because I'm not sure who would make those kind of carries. I feel that it would put the entire onus on the pack to stretch the defence to provide those kinds of openings that these players thrive on.

 

[ratsapprentice]

When someone threatens a defense as little as Brad does then those types of carries don't really do anything at all - you commit one player to the tackle, possibly a loose forward to slow it down and you just drift.
It doesn't matter if he places the ball quickly, because the defense hasn't been held at all, so all you do is waste a phase.

The only thing it could be useful for is trying to get into a specific area of the pitch (in lateral terms).

 

[goodNumber10]

All this talk about Barritt seems pointless at the moment because we aren't exactly weak in defence, we are weak in creativity, attacking ability and utlising our wings. If we get those sorted and defence becomes and issue then maybe we should look a Barritt but currently he is the solution to a problem we don't have.

Defence is a the number one priority.

It's the easiest element to fix, it's the foundations to build on... No point scoring 50 points if you leak 51.

At international level defences comes first, attack second.

Yes, that's a negative way of looking at things but it's realistic.

 

[goodNumber10]

When someone threatens a defense as little as Brad does then those types of carries don't really do anything at all - you commit one player to the tackle, possibly a loose forward to slow it down and you just drift.
It doesn't matter if he places the ball quickly, because the defense hasn't been held at all, so all you do is waste a phase.

The only thing it could be useful for is trying to get into a specific area of the pitch (in lateral terms).

No you don't.

If the carrier gets to the gainlne or over it you give a target and make the defence transition/jockey backwards.

That means you're coming around the corner at pace and they are moving backwards and coming backwards, and around the corner to try and come forward again if they are worried about the numbers.

Of course that relies on him getting to and over the gainlne, and Saffycens example isn't very good other than he takes a battering, but if he carries to the gainlne it serves a very explicit purpose.

Now imagine Ford bringing him onto the gainlne at pace?

Different ball game entirely.

 

[Big Ewis]

Defence is a the number one priority.

It's the easiest element to fix, it's the foundations to build on... No point scoring 50 points if you leak 51.

At international level defences comes first, attack second.

Yes, that's a negative way of looking at things but it's realistic.

there it is. The death of flair and the rise of modern "Rugby".

 

[ratsapprentice]

Of course that relies on him getting to and over the gainlne

... hence why it's ineffective.

Did the back rowers and wingers AP stats so far too.
That's an accurate per 80minute average too.

 

[j'nuh]

When someone threatens a defense as little as Brad does then those types of carries don't really do anything at all - you commit one player to the tackle, possibly a loose forward to slow it down and you just drift.
It doesn't matter if he places the ball quickly, because the defense hasn't been held at all, so all you do is waste a phase.

The only thing it could be useful for is trying to get into a specific area of the pitch (in lateral terms).

I disagree. It isn't always the case that there's something on on every phase. Sometimes the best you can do is take the tackle and recycle. Brad Barritt makes those carries that means that you retain possession and don't disrupt the tempo too much.

When there's nothing on, Barritt is much more likely than Eastmond to ride a tackle and present for the next phase, keeping the attack alive. This is an attacking trait, it's just not a very valued one.

 

[goodNumber10]

... hence why it's ineffective.

Did the back rowers and wingers AP stats so far too.
That's an accurate per 80minute average too.

Are you talking about that one carry on the video or his carrying in general? Because the other video shows the ones he makes when he gets over the gainlne?

Think we're talking about two different things here... saffy was saying he gets smashed and retains possession, I'm saying your one man carry isn't always about pulling in maximum tacklers....

Also, my first answer came across a bit rude... Wasn't intentional mate.

 

[Peat]

J'nuh, that's what forwards are for. You give Kyle Eastmond the ball when the back line is stretched, either to distribute or run. When you need someone to take the run with nothing on, that is definitely what forwards are for - or kick it away and start again.

I would hesitate to say much more about the ESPN stats than we can and should expect an Inside-Centre to make more metres than Barritt. The stats don't even allow us to do much more than speculate than why this happens. It's possible that Barritt's suffering because he's only being used for carrying into traffic while the other 12s make some hay from running at stretched back lines. But that's, like, every other 12.

I don't want to be dismissive about Barritt's talents. He's a player with a lot to admire. But there seems to be a very strong possibility he is offering a worse level of ball carrying than most other international 12s, and that's a big weakness.


Rats, you sure that's right for Haskell?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Are you talking about that one carry on the video or his carrying in general? Because the other video shows the ones he makes when he gets over the gainlne?

Do you genuinely find Brad's attacking "highlights" in that video impressive? Bearing in mind the vast, vast majority of them are either from the AB game, which was clearly an anomaly, or the game against a weak Fiji side.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Looking at the stats you could be fooled into thinking Robshaw was a 6....
Also on the backrows
On the opensides
Robshaw i'm suprised to find him only making on average 8.78 tackles a game, compared to Kvesic and Fraser averaging 12-13 tackles a game. Looking at it though he's having to carry the team(literally) making more carries than Ben Morgan. Also I don't think Fraser really wants to play in attack.
Blindside-Haskell isn't missing tackles and is passing the ball on alot and for some reason he isn't carrying that well. Wood's stats are really average really, and I think he will struggle to get into the team (If I was picking) ahead of Haskell.
Number 8- Vunipola is a carrying monster, beating the most defenders, most carries and meters. Lazy in defence though. Ewers isn't far off and when you actually watch him you see how good his carrying is. I would like to see Ewers and Vunipola in the same back row, how horrible would it be for the other team looking up and seeing them two waiting for the ball.