2014 QBE Internationals [EOYT] England

[goodNumber10]

May hasn't had 16 caps where he's displayed virtually zero ability in one facet of the game.
The last time Cipriani played for England he played very well.
It's not all about form.

We aren't arguing about whether or not he should be in the EPS - it's whether or not he has any attacking ability at international level.
The evidence clearly shows he doesn't - that may have changed... but that seems very unlikely.

By your reckoning there is a similar argument against Eastmond based on defence (yes i know he doesn't have 16 caps).

To be fair to Barritt we haven't seen him in THIS England team, the 16 caps came at a time of transition when we needed a midfield rock not a distributor - its only really 2014 we've started playing with some genuine width and looking to break defences down earlier, before that we needed someone who was solid and we never looked to attack wide off 1st phase.

I'm not saying he's the greatest distributor in the EP but I don't think he's as bad as people make out, by my reckoning it's only a step backwards if they bring him in and tell him not to distribute and Catt seems to have got the skills developing in the international environment....

ESPN - search Brad Barritt and you'll be able to access the stats for all his England matches.

Not sure if you noticed but there is an error on their page and all the game stats link back to the second SA test in 2012.

 

[Peat]

Not sure if you noticed but there is an error on their page and all the game stats link back to the second SA test in 2012.

Didn't when I looked... I know Barritt's numbers nearly off by heart by now tbh, I've referred to them so often. They're bad. Barring the miracle game, he's only broken 20m once - against Fiji. Weirdly some of his better carrying performances have come against Australia and South Africa, but it's not unknown for him to make a metre or less a carry at 12. Think that's happened 3 times. And yeah, I know that statistics by their own are of so-so value, but I don't think'll surprise most people. Barritt has not been a conspicuous success - to be generous - as a ball carrier at 12 for England.

And if he is not capable of being a success this time around, he shouldn't be there. I'll hold my peace beyond there I think, let's see what happens if it happens.

Comparisons with May and Eastmond are wide of the mark through. Their problems in an England jersey have been mental - making bad decisions and nerves. Those things are fixable, particularly with the experience young players gain. Barritt's problems are mainly physical - he has neither the power of a Roberts nor the step and pace of a Fofana - and those things are not fixable.

And Rats is a 100pc correct that it's not all about form.

 

[goodNumber10]

And Rats is a 100pc correct that it's not all about form.

I agree it's not always about form, but yet people consistently pick and choose it to suit their argument (not aimed at you).

 

[Patchey]

Is Barritt's poor carrying due to his inability to carry of because he usually takes the ball incredibly deep from Farrell?

Genuine thought as for a big guy he should make more meters. Has anyone got any stats/anecdotal evidence for when he's played outside Hodgson at Sarries.

I mean he's only played without Farrell inside him for England once. Against SA with flood at ten. Right?

 

[goodNumber10]

I'm not sure it is poor carrying, England have used him in the 12/10 channel more than anywhere else, so he's normally tasked with offering ruck targets in traffic he's not going to be making 40-50 metres in the way a clean break would.

You've got to find a balance, does he make the gain line? yes = good no = bad, then you start looking at things like does he beat defenders, does he break tackles. Busting at 12 is not something that is easy anymore, i can't think of many 12's that frequently stack up massive run stats when used like Barritt was.

To be fair i always liked him at 13 when he was outside Farrell and outside 36, he seemed better balanced there.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Barrit has proved himself internationally as a defender of quality.
His attacking prowess remains uncharted waters.

 

[Peat]

There's a metric ton of 12s who make more yards than Barritt. This sorta came up when I pointed out Twelvetrees' good game against New Zealand - but a big guy carrying hard can make yards in that position. Big yardages are uncommon but scores as low as Barrit regularly puts up are also uncommon.

And Barritt isn't that big. Believe the RFU and he isn't even 15 stone! Saracens reckon he's 15 stone 12 lbs, but either of those measurements look small next to first rate linesmashers such as Manu, Nonu, Basta, Roberts etc.etc.

If anyone can be bothered, stats for him with Hodgson and Farrell at Sarries should be accessible at ESPN, just look at last years results... you can also find the stats from Farrell's early games with Twelvetrees; two games of very average carrying from Billy, one about average, two good ones.

Now, Farrell's come on, the team's come on, maybe Barritt's stronger, picking better lines, we might be considering different fly-halves... maybe it'll work. But I am dubious.

Note - I would consider him at 13, he's done alright there. Which in turn suggests with more space he might do better at 12.

 

[goodNumber10]

There's a metric ton of 12s who make more yards than Barritt. This sorta came up when I pointed out Twelvetrees' good game against New Zealand - but a big guy carrying hard can make yards in that position. Big yardages are uncommon but scores as low as Barrit regularly puts up are also uncommon.

at 12 at international level?

I'd like to see the stats, Manu is a 13, Basteraud is a 13 we're talking about carrying at 12. Barritts phsycial stats stand up again Fofana, Hernandez, D'Arcy, Toomua, Leailifno and JDV - none of whom i recall making massive yardage in the 12 channel.

IMHO, 36's stats are inflated, in the New Zealand game for example, from the looseness of the game at times, remove those and look at hits & carry to the line stats and i think they'll be similar to Barritt.

This seems like a good time to roll this out...

If anyone can be bothered, stats for him with Hodgson and Farrell at Sarries should be accessible at ESPN, just look at last years results... you can also find the stats from Farrell's early games with Twelvetrees; two games of very average carrying from Billy, one about average, two good ones.

Now, Farrell's come on, the team's come on, maybe Barritt's stronger, picking better lines, we might be considering different fly-halves... maybe it'll work. But I am dubious.

Note - I would consider him at 13, he's done alright there. Which in turn suggests with more space he might do better at 12.

This i agree with, i think he's a good centre used wrong, with Tuilagi out we could very well see a 36/BB midfield, or a BB/LB midfield.

 

[Peat]

Stats will have to be post-sleep, but a quick look through ESPN will find them, along with Manu's two performances at 12...

... but you're quite correct, I should have said, "but any competent ball carrying 12 can make yards in that position" - it covers more of his opposition, makes less assumptions about where the metres were made, and illustrates just how worrying the comparisons are.

 

[TheSaffycen]

If we aren't looking at form then Burns should be selected as he delivered on the Arg tour and the first NZ test. At the end of the day after watching Saracens v Clermont Barritt was brilliant, passed when it was on and carried when needed to. I still want to see Farrell-Eastmond-Tuilagi used in a big game but can they be trusted to make the right decisions in defence. For themselves and Manu. If we did go for Faz-Barritt-Eastmond, with the centres swapping around in attack and defence, with quick wingers like Rokoduguni and Nowell/May and that would be a serious threat.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I'm compiling some stats for international centres - particularly 12's.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

What are Barritt's metres made stats like for Sarries?
Really wouldn't surprise me if he was just being used poorly by England, which they have a tendency to do with the backs.

 

[welshglory]

I thought this was quite a good video.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=neY6dEG3lLI#

Barritt seems to have a similar effect that Allen has, except i would argue that he is more test match material

 

[goodNumber10]

What are Barritt's metres made stats like for Sarries?
Really wouldn't surprise me if he was just being used poorly by England, which they have a tendency to do with the backs.

There are a whole host of reasons it could be higher or lower...stats are only as good as the person interpreting them, a better indication imho is that Barritts carrying stats are consistent, they dont' go up or down, he preforms as well against the big teams as he does against the weaker teams he is solid and 99% of the time wins the contact.

Yes he's good in defence, but is that not an essential asset in an international 12?

At the end of the day as long as our pack generates go forward ball then i don't see why he'll be such a massive hindrance in attack as people make out.

I thought this was quite a good video.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=neY6dEG3lLI#

Barritt seems to have a similar effect that Allen has, except i would argue that he is more test match material

I posted that before..... he's a good player.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Indy making a call for Kitchener to be in the squad. Also putting a case across for Tait.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-you-and-a-fit-manu-manu-tuilagi-9804872.html

 

[TRF_Olyy]

With Parling and Slater out surely Kitchener is definitely going to be there?

 

[TheSaffycen]

I would say apart from Launchbury, Lawes and Attwood our depth goes like-
Kitchener, Stooke, Kruis, Robson
then not much between other players. Depending on the style we want too play, Kitchener fits into the athletic lock role quite well.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Robson?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?! I'd rather Danny Care in the 2nd row than that donkey.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Based on Saxons selection I would guess he was around 4/5th in line

 

[goodNumber10]

any number of reasons a player might be in the Saxons not always as a stepping stone to full internationals... he might be int here to bring a bit of cohesion and experience to a young squad and so on, but never have a realistic chance of getting into the full England squad.....