2014 QBE Internationals [EOYT] England

[TheSaffycen]

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I really don't think he does, running the ship, and making the right decisions when to and when not to attack is more important. A fly half trying to create things on his own leads to a disjointed attack.
Does it though ? Barrett can do it, Cooper isn't bad at all. I think Cipriani can do it as well, the threat he gives you with ball in hand the problem with Farrell is a complete lack of pace.

which he has, imho, since the Lions we've seen him bringing the ball to the line and his masked passes have really opened defences - he has his off days, but so does everyone... and sometimes he can be "today i'm going to give a %'s masterclass.
Has he given a great performance against a big team ? Genuine question as I can't remember a game apart from the Oz game where he actually took the game by the scruff of the neck and really won us the game. But that was against a new coach, weak pack Aussie team.
In the AB's game we didn't attack well because Twelvetrees had a shocker... not because Farrell couldn't pass/run.
I don't think he was fit for that game. Cipriani and Burns both looked great against the All Blacks, Cips kicking was incredible as well.
I think 6 nations is a better indication of his abilities right now, and when he came on for Sarries start of the season he showed some lovely subtle touches - so I've got no concerns there.
Not playing against great teams though, we have to see when he comes up against Clermont and Munster.
My biggest fear is that his body is breaking down after 4 seasons of abuse.



We've not seen Slade play under any sort of pressure as of yet, so yes he's going well behind a monster pack that's getting go forward, but lets see what happens as the season wears on and I think his future is at 12 anyway.
We will have to see as he might be the Giteau like player who can play 10 or 12. I really think he will be a 10 though as he is a really good kicker as well, Hill will be the 12 for Exeter so can't see Baxter moving Slade there.
Ford is excellent, no complaints if he starts, Burns needs to be able to demonstrate he can perform behind a beaten pack - and really is probably behind Cip's right now.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

i don't think we should be picking players to "try them out" we should be picking players to win games.

You have to try them out to find out if they can win... You seem to perpetuate this catch 22 situation of basically refusing to pick people who have no experience and therefore not giving them the experience to allow them to get picked. That's why some team suddenly collapse when their old guard leave and they haven't blooded any youth to replace them. Likewise with England, we might have players better than the current ones who could win us more games but refuse to try them. Imagine if Ashton had been replaced earlier, Goode replaced earlier etc. If we play the AU only to win, the 6N only to win and the World cup only to win, when do you propose we give players a chance to prove themselves?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Ford came on 20 minutes into Leicester's premiership final against Northampton and kicked 4 penalties.

Easy to forget he's already a premiership winner.

There is only one game from last season where George had a stinker - that was the Amlin final.
He came out and destroyed in the first half, then went to pot in the second.

Before that the times where it went wrong were when Bath came up against a heavy blitz and "smart" work at the breakdown by the opposition.
That wasn't cracking under pressure.
This season we have figured out how to play against a blitz.

His kicking was also largely very good, but his average was brought down by the occasional off day where he couldn't hit a barn door.

 

[goodNumber10]

as he given a great performance against a big team ? Genuine question as I can't remember a game apart from the Oz game where he actually took the game by the scruff of the neck and really won us the game. But that was against a new coach, weak pack Aussie team.

New Zealand 2012 and 2013 he was excellent, he kept us in the game on both occasions, and kept us in the right parts of the field - and moved the ball when needed.

His first game against Wales when he got man of the match in which he was unbelievable for a boy in his second test match, he was also excellent against SA in SA.

honestly i think people underestimate what a genuinely good player Farrell is and how much he brings to a team, because he isn't a stepper and obvious running fly half... Flyhalf's can only really run like ford and cip's etc... when they are coming forward, that won't happen every game at international level, so pragmatic 10 wins out for me (oddly as i was a player who loved to chuck it about).

IMHO he has come on leaps and bounds since he started in 2012, and I think we would be foolish to throw the baby out with the bath water just when we're getting some genuine cohesion in the half backs.

You have to try them out to find out if they can win... You seem to perpetuate this catch 22 situation of basically refusing to pick people who have no experience and therefore not giving them the experience to allow them to get picked. That's why some team suddenly collapse when their old guard leave and they haven't blooded any youth to replace them. Likewise with England, we might have players better than the current ones who could win us more games but refuse to try them. Imagine if Ashton had been replaced earlier, Goode replaced earlier etc. If we play the AU only to win, the 6N only to win and the World cup only to win, when do you propose we give players a chance to prove themselves?

why do we have to do that at all?

Pick the best player for the position, regardless of if it's the current incumbent or not, if Ford is the better option all around select him and if he plays well keep him there even if Farrell is playing exceptionally well.

I honestly believe we shouldn't just change the team for the sake of trying someone else out...

Ford came on 20 minutes into Leicester's premiership final against Northampton and kicked 4 penalties.

Easy to forget he's already a premiership winner.

yeah fair shout, completely forgot about that.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

We've not seen Slade play under any sort of pressure as of yet, so yes he's going well behind a monster pack that's getting go forward, but lets see what happens as the season wears on and I think his future is at 12 anyway.

With Hill at Exeter? I very much doubt it. Slade will either become a 13 full time or move back to 10 when Steenson retires/starts winding down/Chiefs have a better option at 13.

I still maintain that a Ford-Eastmond partnership would give England so much go forwards and won't sacrifice as much in defence as people think.

I thought that before but Wasps had an absolute field day running down the 10/12 channel, making metres for fun.

 

[Peat]

It's Rob Andrew vs Stuart Barnes all over again... there is nothing to say that really.

Farrell has won a Premiership ***le for Sarries, Ford is yet to win anything of note (Farrell was Goal Kicker for the U20's if i recall), and the couple of games ford played with any real meaning Ford came under genuine pressure and neither he or Bath stepped up to the plate.

Your recall is faulty on this one - Ford was the frontline goalkicker for the U20s, but that shouldn't be in his favour; he was not so hot then.

As I said last time it came up, if its unreliable but potentially brilliant fly-half vs steady fly half, the steady one wins every time. If its steady but potentially brilliant fly-half vs only steady... if I'm honest, I'm not sure Ford is there yet, but would welcome a chance to see him at international level and see where he is/increase his pressure game time. Cipriani is the one who who seems to be making the least mistakes while still having the stardust. But his goal kicking is a slight level below.

I also feel it might be easier to find a reliable 10-12 partnership with Cipriani or Ford, depending on who's in form at 12.

I can accept against Samoa, but Australia will not be a weak side come November.

Good - the potential improvements need a real match to make their case. Of the matches between now and then, Australia is the one I would be most prepared to sacrifice if the gamble went wrong.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I thought that before but Wasps had an absolute field day running down the 10/12 channel, making metres for fun.

Against 12 men.

They still only scored 2 tries didn't they?

I think people are massively over-egging their back row performance. They are definitely one of the best units in the competition.
If they didn't absolutely muller our scrum then I think we could have put 50 on them.

 

[goodNumber10]

Your recall is faulty on this one - Ford was the frontline goalkicker for the U20s, but that shouldn't be in his favour; he was not so hot then.

just checked yeah, you're right, he kicked the game she wa son - farrell kciked when he played 10, and took over a couple of times.

they lost though, so inadvertantly kind of backs my point as Ford went 2/6 in the pressure of the final.

As I said last time it came up, if its unreliable but potentially brilliant fly-half vs steady fly half, the steady one wins every time. If its steady but potentially brilliant fly-half vs only steady... if I'm honest, I'm not sure Ford is there yet, but would welcome a chance to see him at international level and see where he is/increase his pressure game time. Cipriani is the one who who seems to be making the least mistakes while still having the stardust. But his goal kicking is a slight level below.

I also feel it might be easier to find a reliable 10-12 partnership with Cipriani or Ford, depending on who's in form at 12.

Good - the potential improvements need a real match to make their case. Of the matches between now and then, Australia is the one I would be most prepared to sacrifice if the gamble went wrong.

Fair enough mate, i don't. i want us to win every single game, and i think success breeds succession.

With Hill at Exeter? I very much doubt it. Slade will either become a 13 full time or move back to 10 when Steenson retires/starts winding down/Chiefs have a better option at 13.

I don't think that means he can't, i think Hill would be better moving to 13 anyway, and they interchange a lot during the game (that is different to starting there though)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Against 12 men.

They still only scored 2 tries didn't they?

No, all game.

I'm not saying they leaked a load of tries down that channel, but they leaked a lot of metres on carries that they shouldn't have. Do remember the two of them gang tackling Houston (I think?) and him still making it to the tryline.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Right what 10-12-13 axis could we realistically play in the AI
Most likely Farrell-Twelvetrees-Tuilagi not the most inspiring but not the worst midfield in the world
Form wise Ford-Eastmond-Joseph Untested even at European level this year
Creatively Cipriani-Eastmond-Slade going forwards would be brilliant but defensively would turn into a shambles
Ford-Barritt-Eastmond don't worry about the numbers on the back oof the shirt in defence Barritt is 12 and attack Eastmond is 12
Farrell-Burrell-Tuilagi don't know if this is creative enough to unlock top defences, but would knock a few down i'm sure.

 

[goodNumber10]

No, all game.

I'm not saying they leaked a load of tries down that channel, but they leaked a lot of metres on carries that they shouldn't have. Do remember the two of them gang tackling Houston (I think?) and him still making it to the tryline.

they were poor yesterday, but ford put in some excellent cover tackling.

the issue i have with baths defence is they are strong when they are getting plenty off attacking ball - but when it becomes all about the defence they tend to become soft. I felt that was the issue last season, and that was the issue yesterday.

 

[goodNumber10]

Right what 10-12-13 axis could we realistically play in the AI
Most likely Farrell-Twelvetrees-Tuilagi not the most inspiring but not the worst midfield in the world
Form wise Ford-Eastmond-Joseph Untested even at European level this year
Creatively Cipriani-Eastmond-Slade going forwards would be brilliant but defensively would turn into a shambles
Ford-Barritt-Eastmond don't worry about the numbers on the back oof the shirt in defence Barritt is 12 and attack Eastmond is 12
Farrell-Burrell-Tuilagi don't know if this is creative enough to unlock top defences, but would knock a few down i'm sure.

10: Farrell
12: Burrell
13: Tuilagi

10: Ford
12: Burrell
13: Tuilagi

10: Farrell
12: Eastmond
13: Burrell

*sh*t sorry double post!

 

[ratsapprentice]

No, all game.

I'm not saying they leaked a load of tries down that channel, but they leaked a lot of metres on carries that they shouldn't have. Do remember the two of them gang tackling Houston (I think?) and him still making it to the tryline.

Houston is our player.

Hughes and Johnson made more metres vs Sale than they did against us - they also scored a try vs you, something they didn't manage against us.

Both of their tries came when we had 2 men in the bin.

 

[Peat]

*sh*t sorry double post!

BURN HIM!

I want to see Farrell-Eastmond-Barritt and I want to see Cipriani-Tuilagi-Joseph and no, I ain't joking. I am also completely aware I won't get what I want and there's probably some little detail about the players that I'm missing that makes them insane.

edit: Changed Slade for Joseph... Tuilagi-Slade is more of tomorrow's project, in fairness... Joseph's ready now.

 

[TheSaffycen]

10: Farrell
12: Burrell
13: Tuilagi

10: Ford
12: Burrell
13: Tuilagi

10: Farrell
12: Eastmond
13: Burrell

*sh*t sorry double post!

Is there anyway that Farrell could move to 12 ? As has been said he's improving his attacking game and he can protect a Cipriani or Ford. Maybe his lack of pace would be a problem but compared to Barritt he has a lot more to his game. So could we have Cipriani-Farrell-Tuilagi/Burrell ? If I was picking the team I would have Cipriani-Burrell-Joseph
EDIT-crap Peat had my idea of Cips and a big guy at 12.

 

[Peat]

That's probably a bad sign for it tbh.

 

[TheSaffycen]

An entire backline of
9.Care 10.Cipriani 11.Watson 12.Burrell 13.Tuilagi/Joseph 14.Rokoduguni 15.Brown
21.Dickson 22.Farrell/Eastmond 23.Daly/Eastmond
I really would like to see Watson and Roko on the wings, a lot of pace and power. In the middle we have a lot of options and no one is 100% certain who to pick, Burrell and Joseph have a lot of striking ability and the ball will get to the wings. I think that Farrell would start if we have a creative midfield, but would Farrell-Burrell-Tuilagi work ? I imagine Roko and Watson going crazy because they forgot what a ball looks like.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Certainly wouldn't be unhappy with 2 of Nowell, Roko and Watson.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

why do we have to do that at all?


Pick the best player for the position, regardless of if it's the current incumbent or not, if Ford is the better option all around select him and if he plays well keep him there even if Farrell is playing exceptionally well.


I honestly believe we shouldn't just change the team for the sake of trying someone else out...

How do you propose we pick the best players? If you go on club form then Eastmond and Ford both outperform the encumbants. If you go on international form then you have created a catch 22 as you won't give anyone a chance to prove themselves internationally. It's essentially "You can't be picked for an international, you have no international experience."

I thought that before but Wasps had an absolute field day running down the 10/12 channel, making metres for fun.

Both Ford and Eastmond made the 2 try saving tackles on Wasps players in that game. Wasps had almost 20 minutes where they had a numerical advantage over Bath with it being a 3 man advantage at one point. Despite that Bath still scored more tries, in no small part due to Ford and Eastmond. I think using the fact that 2 tries were leaked when they had a massive numerical disadvantage is actually an argument in their favour. It would be normal for most teams to have let in more than 2 tries in that same period of time. Those tries didn't come from any defensive problems with Eastmond or Ford, they came because Bath were hopelessly outnumbered at the time and teams are expected to concede tries when they are a man down, let alone 2 or 3. Especially when 2 of those missing are your forwards meaning the scrum and lineout are both failing and your big tacklers are gone.

 

[goodNumber10]

How do you propose we pick the best players? If you go on club form then Eastmond and Ford both outperform the encumbants. If you go on international form then you have created a catch 22 as you won't give anyone a chance to prove themselves internationally. It's essentially "You can't be picked for an international, you have no international experience."

If it's a close call pick the form player, so If Ford is the form player and better than Farrell pick him.

If he plays well keep him in until he's playing badly, regardless of what the other contenders are doing.

Next season start again, people have to perform so they keep their places... This is why this season is such a close call because no one had been inked in before the season even starts.