2014 QBE Internationals [EOYT] England

[Ragey Erasmus]

well atleast we have May, Nowell and May can all play there, maybe Roko at 11.

Misread that as a list consisting of May, Nowell and May Let the cloning begin.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Misread that as a list consisting of May, Nowell and May Let the cloning begin.

Damn after mocking you for 2 wades I have done this !!

But on the subject of wingers let us compare..
Nowell, Rokoduguni, May, Watson, Wade, May, Ashton, Foden

Nowell GOOD-Best defender, good under the high ball, good kicker BAD-Lacks out and out pace, hasn't been able to finish chances at international level consistently
Rokoduguni GOOD- Good defender, great pace, best in traffic runner, strongest in contact, great stepper BAD- Not tested on international stage, lack of kicking game
May GOOD-Electric pace, agile, good under high ball BAD-terrible finishing at intl' level, doesn't like running straight
Watson-GOOD great under the high ball, electric pace BAD-Not tested at intl' level
Wade-GOOD-Best 1 one 1 attacker, incredible pace, incredible stepping BAD- Size, defensive brain farts
May GOOD-Electric pace, agile, good under high ball BAD-terrible finishing at intl' level, doesn't like running straight
Ashton-GOOD- best support runner, good pace, try scorer at intl' level BAD-can't defend, hasn't done anything at intl' level for last 2 years
Foden-GOOD- Great under the high ball, Good kicker, good pace, good broken field runner BAD- isn't a winger, but is probably the best Full Back winger hybrid

 

[Peat]

I'm really not sure whether I'm trolling or genuinely making a prediction when I mention Foden for a winger shirt, but gods knows Lancaster's selection history can be used to suggest that one...

Feel like Wade's missing his chance, form wise, to press for this one.

 

[Geordie]

Would a midfield of Ford and Eastmond be two small though.

Surely they would be targeted.

Having said that...my prefered option would be:
10) Cips or Ford
12) Eastmond
13) Tuilagi

I think then you could even make a case to have Ashton on the wing...with that amount of creativity and carriers like Attwood, Billy Vunipola or Ben Morgan surely he could start running his lines again.

 

[Geordie]

My other question regards the locks.

What combo of the three below....would you play...and why? Would it affect your back row selection then?

Attwood
Launchbury
Lawes

 

[TheSaffycen]

Would a midfield of Ford and Eastmond be two small though.

Surely they would be targeted.

Having said that...my prefered option would be:
10) Cips or Ford
12) Eastmond
13) Tuilagi

I think then you could even make a case to have Ashton on the wing...with that amount of creativity and carriers like Attwood, Billy Vunipola or Ben Morgan surely he could start running his lines again.

Lancaster doesn't want his 14 in the middle of the park, he wants him on the wing in case we get possession then we have a guy who can finish on the wing instead of having a prop there and the ball dies with him. It does makes sense but honestly I would rather have Roko there as he is faster, better defender and he works in the tight spaces. I would only play Ashton if we are going to let the wingers roam in attack, that's where Ashton is miles ahead of the other wingers. He reads the game better than almost any other backs we have, his try v New Zealand in the summer illustrated how he can see things developing. They might be a bit small but it all depends on the players around them if you have a really big backrow that can protect Ford than it shouldn't be to much of a problem.

My other question regards the locks.

What combo of the three below....would you play...and why? Would it affect your back row selection then?

Attwood
Launchbury
Lawes

If we play Lawes/Launchbury than I would have Haskell-Vunipola-Robshaw, a really well balanced back row with two tacklers in Hask and Robshaw with the carrying of Billy.
If we play Lawes/Attwood than I would keep the same
If we play Attwood/Launchbury than I would play Haskell/Robshaw-Vunipola-Fraser, I made a point of saying we would lack pace in the pack without Lawes so I would add in a proper 7 like Fraser or Kvesic.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Would have for the AI's

Against NZ week 1
4) Lawes, 5) Launchbury
6) Wood, 7) Robshaw 8) Morgan

Bench: Attwood, Vunipola

Against SA week 2
4) Attwood, 5) Launch
6) Haskell, 7) Robshaw, 8) Bunipola
Bench: Lawes, Ewers

Against Samoa week 3
4) Attwood, 5) (4th choice lock if they have 1 would go Kitchener) if not Lawes.
6) Ewers, 7) Kevsic, 8) ?
Bench: Launch/Lawes, Morgan

Against Aus week 4
who ever performed the best in the 3 previous games.

But that is if Lancaster insists on having Robshaw @ 7.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

How many is it in the squads? is it 35 for the AI's?

 

[Peat]

Lancaster doesn't want his 14 in the middle of the park, he wants him on the wing in case we get possession then we have a guy who can finish on the wing instead of having a prop there and the ball dies with him. It does makes sense but honestly I would rather have Roko there as he is faster, better defender and he works in the tight spaces. I would only play Ashton if we are going to let the wingers roam in attack, that's where Ashton is miles ahead of the other wingers. He reads the game better than almost any other backs we have, his try v New Zealand in the summer illustrated how he can see things developing. They might be a bit small but it all depends on the players around them if you have a really big backrow that can protect Ford than it shouldn't be to much of a problem.

I'm not sure it does make sense. I am really struggling to think of the last time we worked the ball wide with the winger having real space to work with. The norm is we fail to create and take overlaps, with the ball reaching the winger with an opposition tackler or two attached. They're usually quite close to the touchline too so going on the outside is a high-risk play.

Besides, even then it should only really apply to one winger at a time. There's no reason for the blindside winger not to be sweeping around. For me, the ability to pick a line when coming from the blind is a really important attribute for great wingers. It really changes the question being asked of the defence, it's a fantastic way to get line breaks.

We do it from set pieces now. We do occasionally get it in open play - only example I can think of is Twelvetrees' horror offload vs New Zealand, which in fairness is a good illustration of the dangers.

But I really believe it should be a common tool in the arsenal. It is virtually everywhere. It's quite incredible to think we've gone backwards in this part of back-play since Martin Johnson's tenure.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Just gonna put this out there... Anthony Watson is the best defensive left winger we have.

 

[Geordie]

I understand the idea of keeping the winger on the wing for chances....but i cant understand the logic of not using your players to the best of the ability.

Ashton is class coming off his wing...getting involved. He's not a winger to sit on the wing. Why cant we use that ability.

The Top SH countries give their players licence to roam....

 

[ratsapprentice]

Tbh I don't recall seeing Savea running lines off 10 in the middle of the park very often.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I'm not sure it does make sense. I am really struggling to think of the last time we worked the ball wide with the winger having real space to work with. The norm is we fail to create and take overlaps, with the ball reaching the winger with an opposition tackler or two attached. They're usually quite close to the touchline too so going on the outside is a high-risk play.

Besides, even then it should only really apply to one winger at a time. There's no reason for the blindside winger not to be sweeping around. For me, the ability to pick a line when coming from the blind is a really important attribute for great wingers. It really changes the question being asked of the defence, it's a fantastic way to get line breaks.

We do it from set pieces now. We do occasionally get it in open play - only example I can think of is Twelvetrees' horror offload vs New Zealand, which in fairness is a good illustration of the dangers.

But I really believe it should be a common tool in the arsenal. It is virtually everywhere. It's quite incredible to think we've gone backwards in this part of back-play since Martin Johnson's tenure.

I'm not saying it's the way I would play, but I can see why he wants to play that way. The way we always have played was that we forced the opposition to cough up the ball and the theory is that on a turnover if you can just get the ball through the hands then if we have a splashton, Strettle then we are alot more likely to score a try than if you have Wood or Hartley on the wing. In principle it makes sense, but it never works as the team selection doesn't match the idea. When you have Barritt and Manu then the ball dies with them 80% of the time, and then you have someone like Ashton who doesn't have blistering pace (he isn't slow by any means but still) then the defence can just drift or the ball goes to the midfield and stays there. If we had picked Sharples and Varndell on the wings then I think the idea would have worked with maybe Eastmond or Twelvetrees at 12 I think it would have worked. But when he first started he had to win the games and we didn't have many options; so he picked from the champions at the time Saracens in a move that most new coaches probably would have done with hardly anytime and it worked pretty well. Now he has to be more expansive annd play the likes of Yarde/Roko/May and get the most out of them by letting them roam.
As you say with Johnson, look how good Ashton was with Foden and Flood and picking lines off them. Johnson to me looked at what players could do and picked them on that, Lancaster looks at what a player can't do andmakes his decision that way.

Tbh I don't recall seeing Savea running lines off 10 in the middle of the park very often.

The All Blacks put the ball through the hands though. That's why he scores so many tries as they understand that if Savea is out there 1 on 1 he gets the try 90% of the time. Also I would have Watson in the squad if not starting for sure.

 

[Geordie]

Tbh I don't recall seeing Savea running lines off 10 in the middle of the park very often.

Its not just off the 10 though.

Its trailing the run of the No.8 and taking the offload...its doing the same off Manu etc.

Why not use a player who can do that. If the AB's had a player like that all the NH fans would be salivating....yet we have one and dont even use him!

As Saffy says the AB backs create the chances out wide as they have lots of ability...we dont create chances out wide...or very few. And we wont if we continue Farrell at 10 with Twelvetrees and Manu in the centres. Im not dismissing Manu there...just pointing out that hes a strike runner of immense quality...just not a creative passer to set the wings free....and Twelvetrees...well...yes....

 

[goodNumber10]

The All Blacks put the ball through the hands though. That's why he scores so many tries as they understand that if Savea is out there 1 on 1 he gets the try 90% of the time. Also I would have Watson in the squad if not starting for sure.

^This.

think 90% of their tries come in under 5 phases and from turnover ball.

Tbh I don't recall seeing Savea running lines off 10 in the middle of the park very often.

no, but Ben smith and Cory Jane do.

 

[Peat]

Tbh I don't recall seeing Savea running lines off 10 in the middle of the park very often.

Sometimes off set piece ball, you're more likely to see him working all the way round to the other wing. Ben Smith pops up in midfield from the wing a lot though. There's some decent examples here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVyZ25oNLls

Saffycen, thing is by now I can't see why he wants to play that way - I can see the intent, I just can't see why it's continued given the results on the pitch. But there we go.

And while I agree that's a good way of looking at their selection philosophies to a point - I'd say that the crucial one is that Johnson looked at his players and came up with a system (then chucked it away at a really stupid time), while Lancaster has a system and is looking at his players. He adjusts the system a little based on them, but not much. But then he is still struggling to find players in key positions to be fair.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Jack Nowell was tracking the ball across the pitch loads in the 6N - his try and his assist for Brown came from this.

Yarde scored a try vs NZ as first receiver from a scrum.
May's "nearly try" came from him getting the ball as 2nd receiver in the middle of the pitch from a scrum.

The idea that our wingers are bound to their 5 metre line is ********.

Maybe we could do it more - but unless we bring in players at 10 and 12 who have the skillset to actually pull it off regularly with some degree of subtlety and accuracy then I can't see it working all that well.

 

[goodNumber10]

I also think it comes with confidence, they were new to the international scene last year and less likely to go roaming for fear of making mistakes.

 

[TheSaffycen]

We sometimes do it at set play time, but in open play where someone like Ashton thrives it doesn't happen.

 

[ratsapprentice]

As I've pointed out - Both Nowell's try and his assist came from what you are suggesting "doesn't happen".