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2014 QBE Internationals [EOYT] England

ok then, here is a question, what one player would you change from this England Line up:

01: Marler
02: Hartley
03: Wilson
04: Lawes
05: Launchbury
06: Wood
07: Robshaw
08: Vunipolo
09: Care
10: Farrell
11: Yarde
12: Twelvetrees
13: Tuilagi
14: Ashton
15: Brown.

You are allowed to change one player, and one player only.


You're a cruel mistress, GN10. There's like 4 I'd change.
Farrell --> Ford would probably be my first switch.
((I'd switch out Ashton (for Nowell/May/Roko), Twelvetrees (for Eastmond/Slade/Hill) and Wood (for Haskell), too))

I think switching out Farrell would have the biggest effect on how the side performs as a whole (and positively, I reckon), the rest would be polishing type changes (though I think Eastmond for 36 would have a significant impact too).
 
You're a cruel mistress, GN10. There's like 4 I'd change.
Farrell --> Ford would probably be my first switch.
((I'd switch out Ashton (for Nowell/May/Roko), Twelvetrees (for Eastmond/Slade/Hill) and Wood (for Haskell), too))

I think switching out Farrell would have the biggest effect on how the side performs as a whole (and positively, I reckon), the rest would be polishing type changes (though I think Eastmond for 36 would have a significant impact too).

Yeh I'll second this other than Cipriani instead of Ford

And it would be between Roko and Nowell not May for Ashton's spot
 
ok then, here is a question, what one player would you change from this England Line up:

01: Marler
02: Hartley
03: Wilson
04: Lawes
05: Launchbury
06: Wood
07: Robshaw
08: Vunipolo
09: Care
10: Farrell
11: Yarde
12: Twelvetrees
13: Tuilagi
14: Ashton
15: Brown.

You are allowed to change one player, and one player only.

Aw I can't change 1. I'd go for:

01: Marler
02: Hartley
03: Wilson
04: Lawes
05: Launchbury
06: Wood
07: Robshaw
08: Morgan
09: Care
10: Ford
11: Yarde
12: Eastmond
13: Tuilagi
14: Rokoduguni/Nowell
15: Brown

If I had to choose just 1 though, it would be Ashton out.
 
What coach would you bring in then ?

Who said I would?

I am genuinely unsure of what I make of Lancaster's record and this long contract - and that goes for his coaching team as well - but then a little more for Lancaster as presumably he liked the idea. I feel there's arguments both ways.

The group clearly likes and trusts each other. The RFU have now given them a lot of advantages in terms of trust and time, which are no small things to give a coach. I've never been a big believer in us winning 2015, but 2019 is on like donkey kong. That's when most of that squad hits their peak. To have a team who will take on delivering the best team for that starting now is fantastic. It's a really good thing.

I like their emphasis on fitness and discipline. I like that they are prepared to be pragmatic about their long term plans. I like the job they've done on creating a club England feeling. Certain aspects of England's play as a team are truly World Class - our defence, our forwards' work in the loose. They've got a clear vision of what they want England look like and how they're going to get there. They want to get the basics of defence, fitness, discipline and mental toughness right and graft on the rest from there. He's been long term from the get go there. He's also very comfortable with the non-rugby aspects of his job, which is good - clearly a huge plus in the RFU's eyes. His knowledge of England's young prospects is a huge asset. I like that he's very holistic about it.

There have been some cracking results. In general they've been good, 60pc win rate, and even with excuses beating NZ is hard and he did it convincingly. Very consistent. He's made us very hard to beat, not many big losses. It's nice being an England fan with him there. It's not difficult to imagine it all paying off in a few Slams and SANZAR scalps soon, is it? It could be argued that's he polishing a bit of a turd here. There are areas of the team where every single candidate has serious questions over them at international level.


But - but - other side of the coin - there hasn't been a trophy. The excuses means its difficult to see us pulling off the NZ win again. Has he got it in him to craft a team that gets over the line at tight moments? Right now he has a huge amount of glorious defeats to his name. Debatably, we should have a couple of 6Ns, maybe a Grand Slam and another win over New Zealand and South Africa already. The chances have been there, just not took - which is a sentence that so often sums up this England team's play. I think Lancaster is the first England coach since Greenwood who's been given 3 swings at winning a 6N and taken none of them.

Can Lancaster and Catt get the team to be ruthless or even competent about making the most of try scoring opportunities? Is Catt even the right guy? Can they finally nail the centre partnership? Given their obsession with Ashton, are we ever going to see him hit his potential again in England shirt? Is Farrell's influence a good thing here? Would we be better off going on bended knee to Northampton to get Alex King instead? Are we ever going to see an England rolling maul worthy of the name under Lancaster and Rowntree? As things stand, nobody's going to come into the set-up with fresh new ideas that they have lived and breathed. Is that the right call? Particularly in a team that clearly needs to evolve further to win things.


I do not have the answers. I don't think any of us do - only time does. Personally I'd have waited a bit longer to get more answers before I gave Lancaster a vote of confidence like that. But that's not saying I want him gone or think he's doing a bad job.

Although, for what it's worth, both Mallinder and Baxter would probably do fine with the role. Better than Lancaster? Don't know. Ask me again after the World Cup, academic as it will be.
 
To pick up on possibly one of your more minor points there, Peat - re: the maul.
Attwood is your man if you want one - I know ours practically disappears when he isn't playing, and when he's there it's the best in the country IMO.

Also - to think of this in a slightly different way... at least we aren't saying "who the **** would replace Stuart & Co. anyway?".
There are a number of potentially very good options in most positions: Baxter, Mallinder, King, West, Edwards, Hatley, Booth.... when we do need to find coaches, I'm happy that we will have a number of English options available.
 
Hopefully Lancaster can do as good a job building a set of backs as he has done building a set of forwards . If all our forwards are fit they are a formidable bunch at least a match for anyone in the world . I feel optimistic that now he's been given time he will turn us into a world class team and we have plenty of youngsters from the 2 JWC winning teams to come in to the squad in the next few years .
 
Agreed on Attwood... but Lancaster and Rowntree seem reluctant to give him much game time. Meanwhile, Ireland steal away a 6N from us, and their success is built in no small part on their rolling maul...

If we've chewed the cud on Lancaster's seeming indifference to powerhouse forwards - guys like Attwood, Garvey, Ewers, Haskell and so on - then we've chewed it a million times. I very specifically omitted our pack's performance in the tight from praise as World Class. Are we going to be the best in the world without World Class tight play? Are Lancaster and Rowntree going to provide it? Do they see it as a priority? Not such a minor point when you start thinking about it.
 
That was a tough one but I'd drop Farrel for Cips or Ford. I think that would stir our back line handsomely. I'd love to see Ashton ' s end of season form in an England shirt.

I like the long contract . He can still get sacked if it all goes wrong anyway but we need the stability after a near decade living off the past and dealing with the pressure.

Sorry to be a statto but we haven't beat South Africa under Lancaster but I feel comfier being an England fan.

I may be wrong in saying this but didn't we score more tries under Johnson. I just feel he could of been more beneficial to the team ?
 
Agreed on Attwood... but Lancaster and Rowntree seem reluctant to give him much game time. Meanwhile, Ireland steal away a 6N from us, and their success is built in no small part on their rolling maul...

If we've chewed the cud on Lancaster's seeming indifference to powerhouse forwards - guys like Attwood, Garvey, Ewers, Haskell and so on - then we've chewed it a million times. I very specifically omitted our pack's performance in the tight from praise as World Class. Are we going to be the best in the world without World Class tight play? Are Lancaster and Rowntree going to provide it? Do they see it as a priority? Not such a minor point when you start thinking about it.
I don't see it as reluctance, I see it as simply picking the best player. I rate Attwood, but he has only rarely been one of our two best locks. After the length of time of his career that he became anonymous, I don't trust him to keep that ability either. And tbh, I don't like the balance he would have with Launchbury. (Although I'd see the merits of a partnership with Lawes and Launchbury in the back row.)
 
I do hold a small amount of hope that Attwood will be given more time this series - he's been outstanding for us so far, and as has been noted by commentary - his fitness has noticeably improved.

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I see Launchbury and Lawes as fundamentally unbalanced - neither are particularly good scrummagers, and neither are particularly outstanding at setting Mauls.
A Joe/Dave combo appeals to me greatly.
 
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I don't see it as reluctance, I see it as simply picking the best player. I rate Attwood, but he has only rarely been one of our two best locks. After the length of time of his career that he became anonymous, I don't trust him to keep that ability either. And tbh, I don't like the balance he would have with Launchbury. (Although I'd see the merits of a partnership with Lawes and Launchbury in the back row.)

Semantics. Lancaster and Rowntree are reluctant to pick him as they don't see him as one of the best players. It's quite clear that, to date, they do not rate him that highly. His appearances basically boil down to "Due to problems with Lawes, Launchbury and Parling, we physically have to give him some gametime" and de facto 2nd XV games.

It shouldn't be about picking the two best locks. It should be about picking the best lock partnership. The best lock partnerships have a grunt lock and an athletic lock (well, ok, they have two freaks who are both, but that's super rare). Attwood has consistently been the best grunt lock available to England for the past 18 months or so at least. Lancaster and Rowntree seem to disagree with one of those statements - that or they really don't rate him that much to the point where they'd ignore the logic above. Which would seem to suggest they don't rate being effective in a maul that much. Which would be consistent with the possibility that they don't feel the need for a grunt lock either. One could reprint the last two sentences while replacing the word "maul" with "scrum" as well.

Maybe it'll happen this series. Or maybe not. Maybe they are happy to ignore a grunt lock in outstanding form because their plans do not require such players.

I'd also be very keen on seeing Attwood and Launch, I think they could be a tremendous pairing.
 
I think we need a bit of an enforcer defensively. We have a great defence but I dont think that we have a big guy around rucks who can hit someone hard, stop them coming again. Lawes kind of does this on the ten which leads to my next point..
If we pick Attwood and Bury then really we need to pick a fast back rower as Robshaw and Wood wont pressure the fly half like a traditional openside. So really Kvesic/Haskell/Fraser or Ewers at 6 as if we lose a bit of dynamism in the pack losing Lawes.
 
If he was fit and flying...would anyone consider Garvey at 6? Im a huge fan...never understand why he doesnt get selected...something must have happened in that halftime of the Saxons game a few years back.

He is massive, a defensive demon, gets through hard yards....perfect for 6. Him and Attwod would add some serious grunt to a pack that i believe has gone too far over to the athletic mobile side...
 
I would rather have Ewers in the 6 role but I would try Garvey and Fearns. Our pack works really well as it is but we do lack pace outside of Lawes, so I wouldn't want Lawes gone then we lack someone who can pressure the half backs.
 
If Launchbury lacks pace, then the amount of breaks he's first guy to is even more impressive. You rarely see him running in open space so it's hard to judge but I'm not as certain as you. I don't see Garvey or Ewers as guys who'd pressure the fly-half either but might be wrong. I think the pack would work roughly as it does now, to be honest, but wouldn't be adverse to bring more speed into the back-row anyway.
 
If Launchbury lacks pace, then the amount of breaks he's first guy to is even more impressive. You rarely see him running in open space so it's hard to judge but I'm not as certain as you. I don't see Garvey or Ewers as guys who'd pressure the fly-half either but might be wrong. I think the pack would work roughly as it does now, to be honest, but wouldn't be adverse to bring more speed into the back-row anyway.
Launchbury is quite quick for a second row and he also has an engine that doesn't stop, but he isn't like Lawes or Fraser. But I just feel our defensive line is quicker on Lawes than the berryman. Also when I say have Ewers or Garvey that would be with Lawes and Launchbury. If we have Attwood then we should have a Kvesic/Fraser in the back row, so we would have one enforcer. For example 4.Lawes 5.Launchbury 6.Ewers 7.Robshaw 8.Vunipola or 4.Attwood 5.Launchbury 6.Robshaw/Wood 7.Fraser 8.Vunipola. I think if you had a 4.Attwood 5.Launchbury 6.Ewers 7.Robshaw 8.Vunipola then the back 5 aren't really pushing up on defence and the 10 doesn't have the pressure of someone like Lawes who sprints up and makes him rush his decisions.
 
Didn't seem slower when using Parling instead of Lawes this summer, but fair enough, it's a valid point and worth looking at. Although I'd hate to bring in Fraser and not give him the opportunity to get over the ball because he's always shooting up.
 
Didn't Launchbury get back to make a crucial tap tackle in the 6N and Parling did the same for the Lions? Admittedly that's going backwards but they don't appear that slow. Also if you really want pace, Croft is pretty damn fast (don't think he really fits the team but he's definitely got pace).
 
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