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2014 QBE Internationals [EOYT] England

Went well in Argentina last summer. I was never quite sure why he was dropped so soon after. Domestic form wasn't great, but neither was it for players like Twelvetrees and Morgan. If people want Tuilagi on the wing, then Joseph would easily take the 13 shirt off Burrell.

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Curiously, thanks to Australia's loss to Argentina, England are ranked third in the world again. Just like this time last year.
 
Went well in Argentina last summer. I was never quite sure why he was dropped so soon after. Domestic form wasn't great, but neither was it for players like Twelvetrees and Morgan. If people want Tuilagi on the wing, then Joseph would easily take the 13 shirt off Burrell.

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Curiously, thanks to Australia's loss to Argentina, England are ranked third in the world again. Just like this time last year.
England are comfortably a better side than that rabble.
 
Sam burgess had a beast game in the final MotM but he also got a compressed fracture of the cheekbone so could be out for 2 months.

What a game that was certainly intense. Brilliant stuff by the Souths.

Wouldn't mind seeing G.Burgess coming over to union.
 
If Tuilagi is injured, then Joseph would probably be the first place I looked. But until he's produced big in an international, then nope.
 
If Tuilagi is injured, then Joseph would probably be the first place I looked. But until he's produced big in an international, then nope.

How can he produce big in an international if he relies on somebody else being injured...?
 
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Centre's not really a position you have on the bench as well, so I can't see JJ getting the 23 shirt.
 
I would firstly admit that I am no great fan of Manu and also that I do not believe that he has done that much for months.....

I know he has been injured but would certainly hope that he is asked to prove himself against the likes of Josephs etc for a number of weeks before he is "shoe'd" back into the International side?

If he does prove to be fit and have some form only then should he even enter into consideration and he should not be picked just because of what he may or may not have done in the past.
 
How can he produce big in an itnernational if he relies on somebody else beign injured...?

Because injury is commonplace enough these days that you can depend on the chance coming and if it doesn't, tough.

I'd also add that if Joseph's domestic form becomes supernova 'how could you ignore him' hot over the next few games, of if Tuilagi is really stinking out the place and Joseph's continuing, I'd consider change, but that's not the case right now.

And that if Tuilagi stinks out the place in an England shirt, maybe I'd reconsider, but again that's not happened.

So right now, no. He can maybe have the Samoa game and the Italy or Scotland game in the 6N, but we go out to win the big games and that means playing your best proven team. Maybe after the World Cup, rotate a little more to start building for the next one.
 
Because injury is commonplace enough these days that you can depend on the chance coming and if it doesn't, tough.

I'd also add that if Joseph's domestic form becomes supernova 'how could you ignore him' hot over the next few games, of if Tuilagi is really stinking out the place and Joseph's continuing, I'd consider change, but that's not the case right now.

And that if Tuilagi stinks out the place in an England shirt, maybe I'd reconsider, but again that's not happened.

So right now, no. He can maybe have the Samoa game and the Italy or Scotland game in the 6N, but we go out to win the big games and that means playing your best proven team. Maybe after the World Cup, rotate a little more to start building for the next one.

I can't agree at all with the "well if a guy doesn't get injured then tough, we won't try anyone else there" attitude at all. That's what kept a lot of useless players in the England team in the first place (Ahem Ashton). No player should have a position theirs regardless of their performance or the performance of others, they should know that they will be challenged and they need to keep their form up. Saying someone needs blistering performance and the incumbent needs to be completely useless for them to even get a look in is such a destructive mentality, you would never form good teams like that.
 
And you will never form a team at all at international level if you don't keep continuity of selection and allow units and players to build around their understanding. The moment you introduce players who haven't really been part of the team you lose that. That is the reality of international rugby these days and why it is harder to lose a shirt than it is to gain a shirt. And that is the same in every country.

Now, you asked about Tuilagi, so I answered about Tuilagi. It is not a clarion call to keep picking the same XV every game until they get injured or retire - although basically every international coach wants to do that - it is a reflection on the varying contributions of Tuilagi and Joseph to the England rugby team to date. Joseph held his end up without looking much of anything in South Africa and done well against undemanding opposition in Argentina. Not bad, but he's proven very little. Tuilagi has been staggeringly successful for us and, while there are lamentable gaps in his skill set, he has proven the ability to rip holes in any and every international defence. So yes, selection in important games does go "Manu - you're fit - you're not imploding - shirt's over there" and that will not change until Joseph finds an opportunity and takes it to show he can perform to the same level.

Not every international player has that luxury. Ideally no player has that luxury, but sometimes that is the situation. If you've got a player who's not been consistent, not given a lot, they're under pressure. If they have rivals of equal stature, they're under pressure. Ashton should be finished by now. Guys like Care, Lawes, Morgan, they'll always be having to perform strong. But that is not the situation here. To repeat myself, Manu has not been the first, and Jonathan Joseph is not the second - and neither is Henry Slade. Burrell is the closest thing going to that rival. There is no way that Joseph's couple of strong performances and short hot streak of form makes him Manu's equal.

Tbh, I'm not sure he's even Burrell's equal in Lancaster's eyes.

Disagree if you like, but get used to disappointment, because that is the way of international rugby and that's an assessment of their international records who likes Joseph a lot as a player. I mean, if Lancaster is going to drag Twelvetrees back from injury to replace Eastmond after he carves the All Blacks apart, does anyone really think Joseph's gonna keep out Tuilagi?
 
And you will never form a team at all at international level if you don't keep continuity of selection and allow units and players to build around their understanding. The moment you introduce players who haven't really been part of the team you lose that. That is the reality of international rugby these days and why it is harder to lose a shirt than it is to gain a shirt. And that is the same in every country.

Now, you asked about Tuilagi, so I answered about Tuilagi. It is not a clarion call to keep picking the same XV every game until they get injured or retire - although basically every international coach wants to do that - it is a reflection on the varying contributions of Tuilagi and Joseph to the England rugby team to date. Joseph held his end up without looking much of anything in South Africa and done well against undemanding opposition in Argentina. Not bad, but he's proven very little. Tuilagi has been staggeringly successful for us and, while there are lamentable gaps in his skill set, he has proven the ability to rip holes in any and every international defence. So yes, selection in important games does go "Manu - you're fit - you're not imploding - shirt's over there" and that will not change until Joseph finds an opportunity and takes it to show he can perform to the same level.

Not every international player has that luxury. Ideally no player has that luxury, but sometimes that is the situation. If you've got a player who's not been consistent, not given a lot, they're under pressure. If they have rivals of equal stature, they're under pressure. Ashton should be finished by now. Guys like Care, Lawes, Morgan, they'll always be having to perform strong. But that is not the situation here. To repeat myself, Manu has not been the first, and Jonathan Joseph is not the second - and neither is Henry Slade. Burrell is the closest thing going to that rival. There is no way that Joseph's couple of strong performances and short hot streak of form makes him Manu's equal.

Tbh, I'm not sure he's even Burrell's equal in Lancaster's eyes.

Disagree if you like, but get used to disappointment, because that is the way of international rugby and that's an assessment of their international records who likes Joseph a lot as a player. I mean, if Lancaster is going to drag Twelvetrees back from injury to replace Eastmond after he carves the All Blacks apart, does anyone really think Joseph's gonna keep out Tuilagi?

There is a difference between continuity for continuity sake and continuity because it's working well. Also Lancaster specifically asked to select the teams later so he could make choices based on their form in clubs. Joseph is currently in great form so it would be stupid for Lancaster to ask for that if he's going to completely ignore form and stick with who he knows regardless. Why bother trying to get that deal from the clubs if he has no intention of using it?
 
Who knows who is going to play ? I don't think Lancaster has a definite answer for the NZ game, I bet we see 2 or 3 guys who weren't first choice in the 6 nations. My guess is that Rokoduguni, Ford and Attwood will all start against the All Blacks and that Joseph, Ewers and Slade will all feature in the other tests.
 
There is a difference between continuity for continuity sake and continuity because it's working well. Also Lancaster specifically asked to select the teams later so he could make choices based on their form in clubs. Joseph is currently in great form so it would be stupid for Lancaster to ask for that if he's going to completely ignore form and stick with who he knows regardless. Why bother trying to get that deal from the clubs if he has no intention of using it?

What is the difference?

So he did. It might get Joseph ahead of Burrell, it might get Eastmond ahead of Twelvetrees, Ford ahead of Burns and Cipriani, Rokoduguni ahead of Ashton and many other possibilities. There are all sort of tight calls around the squad where this will be very useful. Who does he bring in out of Haskell, Croft, Kvesic and Fraser? Attwood or Slater (ok, so that one got answered), Watson vs May vs Nowell, Foden or Goode or both and on and on and on...

Tuilagi vs Joseph is not one of the tight calls. Sorry. Not based on 5 rounds of Premiership action. Two outstanding performances in Europe *might* change that.

Who knows who is going to play ? I don't think Lancaster has a definite answer for the NZ game, I bet we see 2 or 3 guys who weren't first choice in the 6 nations. My guess is that Rokoduguni, Ford and Attwood will all start against the All Blacks and that Joseph, Ewers and Slade will all feature in the other tests.

Lancaster does throw the odd curve-ball but as a rule it's very easy to guess his selection intentions imo - he's a very loyal selector with very clear player preferences. Has he said anything about planning to rotate in the Autumn?
 
I think people are forgetting that JJ has played wing for club and england before.

So a wing that can cover FB on the pitch means you can have JJ on the bench covering centre and wing.

I guess it all depends on manus form over the next couple of rounds. If he continues to bust defences and makes that pass when he needs to then he keeps his shirt. If not JJ or slade come in.

As for burrell, I don't think he is playing that well to be honest. He is playing on but nothing super
 
When's Manu due back?
I'm sure I've heard "next weekend" since he first disappeared.
 
I honestly rate Daly much much higher than either Trinder or Joseph
 
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