[2014 Mid-Year Tests] South Africa

[Draggs]

I remember reading that some guy from the Saffa coaching staff said he didn't trust Kockott was that good, because he had just had one break-out very good season for Castres, but maybe it was an 'accident', or luck, and he wouldn't trust picking a guy who doesn't show he can play at the highest level against the best South African clubs. But that by now he may regret Kockott's absence. It was very recently.

This is the same coaching staff that picks a Bull after they score a try from the bench?

OK, very much an exaggeration, but still...

Thrilled for Sithole! Just shows what young players can do with a bit of confidence put in them by staff.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Thrilled for Sithole! Just shows what young players can do with a bit of confidence put in them by staff.

I got the oddest mental picture of someone shoving a bag full of 'confidence' up Sithole's sithole using a staff.


Anyway. If Fourie du Preez stays fit we won't need Kockott or anyone else at 9 to step up till after the RWC. The majority of the pieces are there and most of them with quality back-up. Last year we sorted out the #15 jersey (Le Roux just needs to make his 1st up tackles still though) which has been a problem post-Montgomery. This year we will sort out the #10 jersey with Steyn there should things go awry. #9 is fine; FdP still has 1/2 the goods and that is plenty.

 

[TRF_heineken]

This whole Kockott thing is a bit irritating. Looks like everyone forgot why he left SA in the first place.

He was an arrogant little sh**! He didn't get along with teammates and the coaches, and wasn't humble.

Under HM there has been a lot of humility among the staff and players and they show each other respect. I have never liked Rory as a person. He always spoke like the world owes him something. And while it's all good that he's playing top rugby in France, it doesn't necesarily mean that he will fit in the Bok-setup.

I say we must keep on with the system in place. if a player wants to make his debut, he must be playing in SA. This counts for a guy like CJ Stander too. If he's already a bok, then he can go and play in the NH.

I think everyone is jumping to conclusions way too early. Remember that this is just a training camp. the possibility is that some of these guys can still get injured, others might get picked ahead of some of these guys and other factors.

I will reserve judgement until I say the final squad for the incoming tours.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Oh, sure Heineken. Bring reason and pragmatisism into it. Why don't you just go ahead and say Rugby is just a sport and not even a very globally relavant sport at that. And what is sport anyway..

Just, go ahead. It's fine. I'll just get back to work while considering how pointless that is as well while you started me on that road.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Oh, sure Heineken. Bring reason and pragmatisism into it. Why don't you just go ahead and say Rugby is just a sport and not even a very globally relavant sport at that. And what is sport anyway..

Just, go ahead. It's fine. I'll just get back to work while considering how pointless that is as well while you started me on that road.

Haha, sorry buddy

 

[Darwin]

A few thoughts/questions:

- Is it time for the Boks to dump Janie du Plessis? He has experience and can still generally hold up his side of the scrum, but offers nothing around the field. I'm not sure who the best option to replace him is though - Oosthuizen still gives away far too many penalties at scrum time, while Malherbe and van der Merwe are rather inexperienced.....
- Is Matfield still among the best locks in South Africa? He's still a world class lineout operator, but does he offer enough else around the field? It is good to see Etzebeth's name there though (though bad news for the French!).
- Did the selectors write the wrong Cheetahs loose-forwards name down? Mahoje looks promising, but I feel Boom Prinsloo was a bit unlucky to miss out, though I suspect his lack of size (and the abundance of other strong options) may have counted against him.
- Is Jacques du Plessis really a loose forward? He carries the ball well and has a massive work-rate but I feel lacks the explosiveness required for a loose forward. Personally I believe he would be more valuable as a lock (especially considering South Africa's abundance of loose-forward options).
- Have South African scientists cloned Morne Steyn and named him Marnitz Boshoff? If so why, did they clone Steyn and not a decent player? Seriously the 10 jersey looks a bit of a weak spot for the Boks (unless of course Goosen starts to really deliver on his potential).
- How many midfield backs do you need? There seems to be an abundance of talent here....
- Where are all South Africa's fullbacks? There doesn't seem to be a genuine fullback in the squad - Le Roux, Mvovo, Steyn etc can call do a good job there, but I'm not sure whether it is the best position for any of them (maybe it is for Le Roux)....

Now I have undoubtedly annoyed / confused all of the South African posters on the board with a series of naive questions which show my complete lack of understanding of South African rugby I will take my leave......

 

[SomeOke]

A few thoughts/questions:

- Is it time for the Boks to dump Janie du Plessis? He has experience and can still generally hold up his side of the scrum, but offers nothing around the field. I'm not sure who the best option to replace him is though - Oosthuizen still gives away far too many penalties at scrum time, while Malherbe and van der Merwe are rather inexperienced.....
- Is Matfield still among the best locks in South Africa? He's still a world class lineout operator, but does he offer enough else around the field? It is good to see Etzebeth's name there though (though bad news for the French!).
- Did the selectors write the wrong Cheetahs loose-forwards name down? Mahoje looks promising, but I feel Boom Prinsloo was a bit unlucky to miss out, though I suspect his lack of size (and the abundance of other strong options) may have counted against him.
- Is Jacques du Plessis really a loose forward? He carries the ball well and has a massive work-rate but I feel lacks the explosiveness required for a loose forward. Personally I believe he would be more valuable as a lock (especially considering South Africa's abundance of loose-forward options).
- Have South African scientists cloned Morne Steyn and named him Marnitz Boshoff? If so why, did they clone Steyn and not a decent player? Seriously the 10 jersey looks a bit of a weak spot for the Boks (unless of course Goosen starts to really deliver on his potential).
- How many midfield backs do you need? There seems to be an abundance of talent here....
- Where are all South Africa's fullbacks? There doesn't seem to be a genuine fullback in the squad - Le Roux, Mvovo, Steyn etc can call do a good job there, but I'm not sure whether it is the best position for any of them (maybe it is for Le Roux)....

Now I have undoubtedly annoyed / confused all of the South African posters on the board with a series of naive questions which show my complete lack of understanding of South African rugby I will take my leave......

Haha all the questions you're asking we're asking ourselves, there is a reason we had Lambie at 15 so often, and Kirchner actually made the squad we don't have quality at 10 or 15 and haven't for the last couple years. Even if Steyn comes back I don't feel we have a chance at the World Cup off the back of him, in fact I don't think we will ever compete with NZ until we have a Pivot who can do more than kick.

Jacques du Plessis and Mahoje are the two surprise inclusions but the loose trio is the one place where I feel we actually are sufficiently covered (and Hooker), so it's probably just a development thing, I would have selected Nizaam Carr and Boom Prinsloo instead but they won't see the starting 23 in any case.

I think line-outs are so vital to our territory based game-plan that it's actually sufficient if that's all he offers if our line-out isn't functional the whole plan falls apart.

 

[TRF_heineken]

A few thoughts/questions:

- Is it time for the Boks to dump Janie du Plessis? He has experience and can still generally hold up his side of the scrum, but offers nothing around the field. I'm not sure who the best option to replace him is though - Oosthuizen still gives away far too many penalties at scrum time, while Malherbe and van der Merwe are rather inexperienced.....

My question would be who else?? Jannie certainly does what he has to do when playing. It's good to see more youngsters getting involved now. I think Jannie is there to help the young guys evolve.

- Is Matfield still among the best locks in South Africa? He's still a world class lineout operator, but does he offer enough else around the field? It is good to see Etzebeth's name there though (though bad news for the French!).

Matfield is more of a buffer I feel. Andries Bekker is in Japan, PSDT is out injured, Etzebeth is nursing an injury. Apart from Flip, all the other locks are uncapped.

- Did the selectors write the wrong Cheetahs loose-forwards name down? Mahoje looks promising, but I feel Boom Prinsloo was a bit unlucky to miss out, though I suspect his lack of size (and the abundance of other strong options) may have counted against him.

Mohoje is a cover for both flanker and lock. he has impressed me, just as Boom has. I feel this is more to keep the government happy.

- Is Jacques du Plessis really a loose forward? He carries the ball well and has a massive work-rate but I feel lacks the explosiveness required for a loose forward. Personally I believe he would be more valuable as a lock (especially considering South Africa's abundance of loose-forward options).

I agree, he should be used as a lock. and he plays like a lock. End of story

- Have South African scientists cloned Morne Steyn and named him Marnitz Boshoff? If so why, did they clone Steyn and not a decent player? Seriously the 10 jersey looks a bit of a weak spot for the Boks (unless of course Goosen starts to really deliver on his potential).

I like Marnitz, I don't see why people are so against this poor guy. he has proved out of everyone in the SA teams, that if you are given a chance, to take it and make the best of it. He's keeping a springbok out of the starting line-up... that says a lot.

- How many midfield backs do you need? There seems to be an abundance of talent here....

most of our midfield backs can play wing too... De Allende, De Villiers, Engelbrecht... Just as long as they are big and fast, HM is happy

- Where are all South Africa's fullbacks? There doesn't seem to be a genuine fullback in the squad - Le Roux, Mvovo, Steyn etc can call do a good job there, but I'm not sure whether it is the best position for any of them (maybe it is for Le Roux)....

well rather them than another year with Kirchner. I think Frans and Willie will be the incumbents for now... until Lambie is fit again.

Now I have undoubtedly annoyed / confused all of the South African posters on the board with a series of naive questions which show my complete lack of understanding of South African rugby I will take my leave......

I answered your questions in red

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Some good questions, Darwin. I'd like to hear what the coaching staff has to say on most of them myself.

My thoughts for what its worth;

- RE your remark about Etzebeth, yes it's very good he is back training (I am more glad for the Stormers' sake) but you know you guys are playing the French and we are facing Wales and Scotland?!
- YES, please lets leave Jannie du Plessis at home. I like any of the options in our 3 alternatives. Malherbe and Oosthuizen probably a bit ahead of Van der Merwe in the scrums but the latter brings more in open play. With Malherbe injured ATM (though he could be ready when needed) I'd be tempted to start Oosthuizen and have Van der Merwe on the bench.
- Matfield might not be our future but our future is currently injured so I don't see the harm TBH. I'd be surprised if matfield started ahead of Etzebeth and Flip van der Merwe (assuming both are fit come the tests of course). PS du Toit and Franco van der Merwe are injured and the rest don't bring more than what Matfield would IMO, maybe something different but not more.
- Mohoje and Jacques du Plessis are surprises to be sure. But I think we shouldn't read to much into that. Neither of them are fetchers so I think the selection of Brussow is much more indicative of the direction we are taking. Between Brussow, Burger, Vermeulen, Alberts and the foreign based and injured Louw and Arno Botha respectively we are sorted looking ahead. So I think most South Africans see the selection of Mohoje and Du Plessis as a non-issue. An interesting thing to consider is that both Mohoje and Du Plessis have a lot of experience as 2nd rows albeit not at the highest levels they've played. Might be HM is looking at developing a 2nd Danie Rossouw type player possibly??? Who knows!
- Boshoff is scarily reminiscent of Morne Steyn. Sure he is no Da Carter but TBH I'm just glad we are seeing new guys (hopefully developing) at SR level. My hopes are still that Goosen gets back to pre-injury form (and that he stays fit) and that Pollard comes through well (he is being well looked after- I just question whether the Bulls are the right franchise for him to be developing but that is another discussion)
- Where are SA's fullbacks? The Bulls, Sharks all have new FBs with the likes of Kirchner and Louis ludik leaving for Europe while Taute is only now playing for the Stormers after injury. The Lions are only now back in SR. So I think it's a question of timing. Marnitz Boshoff actually started out at 15 for the Lions and looked very good there IMO. Taute has had massive injury problems for the last 2 years. I still think can come good for us at 15 in the future (he has the talent and SURELY THE WP/STORMERS WILL DEVELOP SOME TYPE OF GAME SOONER RATHER THAN LATER ??). Don't discount Cheslin Kolbe. Way too early for him yet and our game doesn't quite suit him but it could in the future.. possibly.

 

[TRF_heineken]

The only thing that has struck me with this group is the term utility.

at prop Coenie and Marcel can play both sides of the scrum.
Mohoje and Du Plessis can play no. 4, 5, 6, 7 & 8
Hougaard can play scrumhalf and wing
Boshoff can play 10 & 15
The Centres, I already stated before can play centre and wing
Mvovo, Le Roux can play 11, 14 & 15
Frans can basically play anywhere except at 9...

Maybe HM is looking at building a utility squad and use the advantage of having an extra player on the bench to his advantage...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I am not sure how much I like the fact that many of these guys will/could flit about ITO position. For instance would Hougaard possibly not have been a better 9 by nw if that was where he was stuck. We said the same thing regarding Lambie and Pienaar who were moved about relentlessly and IMO suffered for it. Frans Steyn left SA because he was fed up with being seen a a utility player and I question his effectiveness at both 10 and in particular 15. I would hate to see the likes of Du Plessis and Mohoje- both quite tall- attempt to play a fetcher role or even at 8; just don't think they have the hands for it. Maybe I am just being pessimistic but I would love for guys to be considered for positions only in the position they have played the bulk of their SR in any given year.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I am not sure how much I like the fact that many of these guys will/could flit about ITO position. For instance would Hougaard possibly not have been a better 9 by nw if that was where he was stuck. We said the same thing regarding Lambie and Pienaar who were moved about relentlessly and IMO suffered for it. Frans Steyn left SA because he was fed up with being seen a a utility player and I question his effectiveness at both 10 and in particular 15. I would hate to see the likes of Du Plessis and Mohoje- both quite tall- attempt to play a fetcher role or even at 8; just don't think they have the hands for it. Maybe I am just being pessimistic but I would love for guys to be considered for positions only in the position they have played the bulk of their SR in any given year.

No I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I hate it when players are picked out of position. We need specialists, and they must be great at their specific task. End of story.

 

[Bull]

I don't know what the deal is with Jannie, never have. Personally I've never rated him, he always looks for trouble and is usually involved in of the ball ****le more than doing anything else.

Also glanced over this article last week, and my reaction was is this guy for real?
http://www.sport24.co.za/Columnists/TankLanning/There-is-life-after-Jannie-20140515

 

[TRF_heineken]

I don't know what the deal is with Jannie, never have. Personally I've never rated him, he always looks for trouble and is usually involved in of the ball ****le more than doing anything else.

Also glanced over this article last week, and my reaction was is this guy for real?
http://www.sport24.co.za/Columnists/TankLanning/There-is-life-after-Jannie-20140515

Ag Tank Lanning should stop eating all that fatty foods, it's swelling up his brain making him write kak like that article.

While I agree that our prop stock is slowly starting to get fuller than usual, he's forgetting that we have to focus on the now too... I know HM will be burning to win the Rugby Championship and will certainly try to win it this year before the World Cup next year...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I don't see too much problems with that article? We do have a lot of good props, especially now with the 'hit' gone and proper beef being the order of the day again. We all knew Coenie was a loose head to start off with and has been a mixed bag for the Cheetahs in the scrum at tighthead.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Had some time to consider the training squad line-up again and I have a few things to get off my chest.

I'll be the first one to say at times I buy into the 'maak die Bulle almal Bokke' conspiracy theory but one Bull I'd prefer to have in the training squad is Paul Willemse over Lood de Jager (even though Lood is far removed family!). I just think he has shown more potential and being quite young he is perfect for a long Bok introduction. Etzebeth and FvdM are the now but imagine having both of PSdT and Willemse in the wings!

 

[Darwin]

Some good questions, Darwin. I'd like to hear what the coaching staff has to say on most of them myself.

My thoughts for what its worth;

- RE your remark about Etzebeth, yes it's very good he is back training (I am more glad for the Stormers' sake) but you know you guys are playing the French and we are facing Wales and Scotland?!

Oops you aren't playing France are you. To be fair my side isn't playing France either

- Matfield might not be our future but our future is currently injured so I don't see the harm TBH. I'd be surprised if matfield started ahead of Etzebeth and Flip van der Merwe (assuming both are fit come the tests of course). PS du Toit and Franco van der Merwe are injured and the rest don't bring more than what Matfield would IMO, maybe something different but not more.

If Matfield is just in the squad to impart his experience on the younger players I don't think it would be a major issue, but I get the feeling that if he is in the final squad he will be playing (and possibly starting). He is still playing good rugby, but I don't know whether he is a test quality lock anymore. I suppose we will see how much involvement he will have in a few weeks time....

Don't discount Cheslin Kolbe. Way too early for him yet and our game doesn't quite suit him but it could in the future.. possibly.

Do you think he will be used as a fullback or a wing? His lack of size is a major issue, and that is not something he can do a lot about!

I answered your questions in red
I like Marnitz, I don't see why people are so against this poor guy. he has proved out of everyone in the SA teams, that if you are given a chance, to take it and make the best of it. He's keeping a springbok out of the starting line-up... that says a lot.

I've got nothing against Boshoff. He is just a Morne Steyn clone. With the backs that South Africa now possess I just feel South Africa may benefit from a bit more creativity in the 10 jersey....

The only thing that has struck me with this group is the term utility.

at prop Coenie and Marcel can play both sides of the scrum.
Mohoje and Du Plessis can play no. 4, 5, 6, 7 & 8
Hougaard can play scrumhalf and wing
Boshoff can play 10 & 15
The Centres, I already stated before can play centre and wing
Mvovo, Le Roux can play 11, 14 & 15
Frans can basically play anywhere except at 9...

Maybe HM is looking at building a utility squad and use the advantage of having an extra player on the bench to his advantage...

To be honest I can't really see Steyn as a lock. However he would make a pretty handy prop

 

[SomeOke]

I don't see too much problems with that article? We do have a lot of good props, especially now with the 'hit' gone and proper beef being the order of the day again. We all knew Coenie was a loose head to start off with and has been a mixed bag for the Cheetahs in the scrum at tighthead.

The problem is it's not about having an abundance of good props, we need World class props, and no one really sticks out. In their current form our Springbok props are good but I wouldn't say any better than NZ Aus Or most of the big NH nations.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

The problem is it's not about having an abundance of good props, we need World class props, and no one really sticks out. In their current form our Springbok props are good but I wouldn't say any better than NZ Aus Or most of the big NH nations.

But if that is the perception its not Lanning's fault. I do have a problem with that perception though as that's all I see it being; a perception built on the fact that Beast, Steenkamp and JdP have been hogging the caps for so long all we see is the 'inexperience' of the guys only now coming through.

Certainly you can't mean that!?! Aussie props? Never. Beast is still a world class prop. Even more than he was. He has some time on the clock as well. Coenie I see as a very good player to bring in off the bench and so too Marcel van der Merwe and Nyakane. These guys will be abe to scrum with the best as replacements as the opposition 1st choice guys will be tired and for the most part the opposition bench options coming on shouldn't be any better than either of these guys as is. Malherbe has shown last year he can scrum with the best and doesn't drop off tackles ala doc Jannie. We've seen Lourens Adriaanse has what it takes and I am with Lanning that the Lions duo have outperformed everyone at least in the scrum. So I just don't see a probelm for us other than not being able to look past the amount of caps to a player's name. I don't rate Cilliers though. I see Coenie as a better scrummiger under the new engagement sequence. Bit of a dud the Stormers bought there.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Oh, come on Darwin. Everyone knows your an Aussie...


On Kolbe. I want to see him back at 9 starting for the Stormers.